Tragic letter from The Hobby Lobby CEO: results of personal freedoms slipping away
The Hobby Lobby CEO (left) and his wife
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This letter is a very sad example of what happens when our personal freedoms and liberties are taken away. America wasn’t built on this, readers, and we absolutely must share this to show people the impact the Obama administration is having on every-day Americans.
When my family and I started our company 40 years ago, we were working out of a garage on a $600 bank loan, assembling miniature picture frames. Our first retail store wasn’t much bigger than most people’s living rooms, but we had faith that we would succeed if we lived and worked according to God‘s word. From there, Hobby Lobby has become one of the nation’s largest arts and crafts retailers, with more than 500 locations in 41 states. Our children grew up into fine business leaders, and today we run Hobby Lobby together, as a family.
We’re Christians, and we run our business on Christian principles. I’ve always said that the first two goals of our business are (1) to run our business in harmony with God’s laws, and (2) to focus on people more than money. And that’s what we’ve tried to do. We close early so our employees can see their families at night. We keep our stores closed on Sundays, one of the week’s biggest shopping days, so that our workers and their families can enjoy a day of rest. We believe that it is by God’s grace that Hobby Lobby has endured, and he has blessed us and our employees. We’ve not only added jobs in a weak economy, we’ve raised wages for the past four years in a row. Our full-time employees start at 80% above minimum wage.
But now, our government threatens to change all of that. A new government health care mandate says that our family business MUST provide what I believe are abortion-causing drugs as part of our health insurance. Being Christians, we don’t pay for drugs that might cause abortions, which means that we don’t cover emergency contraception, the morning-after pill or the week-after pill. We believe doing so might end a life after the moment of conception, something that is contrary to our most important beliefs. It goes against the Biblical principles on which we have run this company since day one. If we refuse to comply, we could face $1.3 million PER DAY in government fines.
Our government threatens to fine job creators in a bad economy. Our government threatens to fine a company that’s raised wages four years running. Our government threatens to fine a family for running its business according to its beliefs. It’s not right. I know people will say we ought to follow the rules; that it’s the same for everybody. But that’s not true. The government has exempted thousands of companies from this mandate, for reasons of convenience or cost. But it won’t exempt them for reasons of religious belief.
So, Hobby Lobby – and my family – are forced to make a choice. With great reluctance, we filed a lawsuit today, represented by the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, asking a federal court to stop this mandate before it hurts our business. We don’t like to go running into court, but we no longer have a choice. We believe people are more important than the bottom line and that honoring God is more important than turning a profit.
My family has lived the American dream. We want to continue growing our company and providing great jobs for thousands of employees, but the government is going to make that much more difficult. The government is forcing us to choose between following our faith and following the law. I say that’s a choice no American – and no American business – should have to make.
The government cannot force you to follow laws that go against your fundamental religious belief. They have exempted thousands of companies but will not except Christian organizations including the Catholic church.
Since you will not see this covered in any of the liberal media, pass this on to all your contacts.
Sincerely,
David Green, CEO and Founder of Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc.
Why does Hobby Lobby’s defiance matter? Find out here.
Please share this letter with your contacts, friends, family and social media circles. Only we can turn this back.
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God Bless you all at Hobby Lobby. We are praying for you… and our country.
Exactly HOW is the ceo’s RIGHTS infringed? please answer that question. He can go to any church he wants. He can throw $$$ at any church he wants. When he incorporated his company, he did so to ‘cover his assets’ so to speak as far as personal responsibility. And NOW he must abide by the LAW…….so HOW IS HIS rights being infringed. Or does he have the right to infringe on his employees’s rights. He doesn’t HAVE to open on sunday. I respect that. But I don’t respect when a boss foists their religion on the help! EVEN the slaveowners didn’t do that!
It wasn’t the law when the company began.
They are not infringing on anyone’s rights.
They are not forcing their religious beliefs on anyone – just don’t want others religious beliefs forced on them.
Hobby Lobby is the Crispus Attucks of the new American Revolution II
That is a horrendous analogy.
I recommend you obtain and read The Harbingers by Rabbi Jonathan Cahn. There are also plenty of history books that do have history recorded in them and cite primary sources. You might begin with George Washington’s inauguration day and what all took place there. It’s nice that you do reference at least one piece of America’s history, but there are so many more facts that you also need to take into consideration.
I back y’all 100%. You should not have to give up your values & morals to conduct your business. I have and will continue to support and shop at your stores. One of the reasons I like shopping there is it is a Christian based store. I will pray for you that God puts you before a judge with the same values. God bless you.
Just one on the many reasons why we Christians should be on our knees praying and seeking God’s face. God alone can and will turn things around if only we will turn to Him. Thank you for the stand you are making. My prayers are with you even now.
Its quite simple your not opperating a religeous organization that by nature would mean your totally non profit as in a church. Your a for profit organization wanting to see your bottom line grow and as such you have to follow rules set forth for any other company. I watched as you was shot down on these very grounds in the supreme court and I fully back that. Whatever your personal religeous affiliation your company is not a christian bussiness. You don’t just sell christian things you sell hobby and craft stuff and as such you are a nonchristian store. You feel your beliefs as people should override your emplyee’s rights as people in an employment setting and this is not how the world works. Either follow the rules or shut down either way your company is not important enough to garner special attention as you don’t really do anything necessary for human life. A christian bussiness is A.) non profit any profits it makes goes back into the church that funds it to help with ministries and things like food pantry ect. and B.) you don’t even do anything manditory. Sure if you close a few thousand people are out of work but you know what where they go to work at I bet they get these things your trying to deny them in their healthcare package. You lost stop being bitter and man up like true christians.
I agree. Employees, working for any religious organization, should be free to access whatever type of healthcare they need regardless of the employer’s opinion about those options/choices. Furthermore, American Law is not Christian Law and does not need to represent Christian values (which vary greatly).
Sorry, but since this is NOT a public company, but a family owned (ie private) company, they should, by Constitutional Law, be allowed to run it as they choose. Just as you should be allowed to pay, or not pay, for the insurance you wish to carry. When the government gets to tell you what you MUST spend your money on, you, my dear, are no longer free but are a property of that government. Don’t cry when you finally figure out you are owned, you agreed to it .
And WHY would you choose to work for any organization you do not support? That is like a nurse who doesn’t believe in abortion getting a job at an abortion clinic and then yelling when he/she has to assist in an abortion. Why is it the employer’s responsibility to adjust to you? You go get a job for a company whose philosophy is in line with yours.
Employees ARE free to access any type healthcare they choose. Their employer shouldn’t be forced to pay for it. If an employee works for the Hobby Lobby and wants the morning after pill, the week after pill, an abortion, a sex change operation, breast augmentation, liposuction, bariatric surgery – you name it – the employee is free to get it – on their own dime.
Hobby Lobby has not denied anyone access to medical care or to healthcare coverage. They have not said they will fire anyone who elects to use abortion or abortifacient drugs for convenience. They have simply stated they will not be a party to such actions and will not pay for it.
And yes, as a company, until the Supreme Court ruled this unconstitutional law Constitutional, Hobby Lobby was well within its rights to make decisions regarding how their company would be run according to their religious beliefs. No one is forced to work there. If an employee or potential employee doesn’t like Hobby Lobby’s healthcare package, they are free to choose to seek employment elsewhere.
The pervasive liberal progressive ideology of “I, I, I, me, me, me, give me, give me, give me, my rights, my rights, my rights” is beyond disgusting. Who cares about the rights of the people who built the company? Not only is it not all about you, it’s not even about rights. Abortion and abortifacient drugs are not a right. Just because you want it, doesn’t give you the right to rob someone to pay for it. Very few people in this country seem to genuinely understand anymore what a “right” is. It’s all very fun now as they pillage and plunder. But when they’re done sacking the rest of the country and it’s their turn to be sacked, there will be no one left with the resources to help them. And they can burn just like everyone else.
Our country was founded on the word of the Living God, the Bible. It’s how fairness was created in this nation, that all men were created equal, women are the same as men, just men with a womb in the eyes of God. I am in full agreement for the Hobby Lobby to run it’s business as a Christian organization, freedom of religion is not just a statement, it is what my forefathers fought for with their life blood, that is respected by this off spring to the hilt. If this company wants it’s employees to be in agreement with their values, that is their right also. If people that work there are not in accord, they should not occupy the job, that is the right of a Christian company. They are not there to cater to the secular minds of the worldly, it’s their right.
We have received complaints about your argumentative replies. Please do not comment any further. We do moderate these comments. We approve all comments submitted, but if someone is annoying others, we reserve the right to block their ability to comment.
Thank you.
Whereas I do not agree with this individual’s posts, I respect his/her opinion. It is too bad complaints have been registered. These posts are not derogatory, just slanted in opinion that drastically varies from the original post. Discussions/arguments are less interesting and less can be learned when it is one sided.
With the many posts you’ve submitted, it’s clear we haven’t blocked your ability to provide a dissenting opinion.
However, some are viewing you as being harassing.
You’ve made your point — many times. Responding to each and every post to argue and debate is not appropriate, and it needs to stop.
Thank you for sharing your opinions with us.
One question must be asked. When did a “benefit” become a right? Benefits are offered, not just in lieu of higher compensation, but to attract and retain higher performing and better qualified candidates and employees. The cost to a company to rehire is far greater than it is to retain employees, therefore benefits – 401k, ESOP, insurance, etc… – are provided to incent an employee to remain with the company. The decision making regarding benefits should remain within the company, regardless of one’s beliefs.
In reference to statements made regarding the Constitution and religion, the basis religion is not in the Constitution is to keep the government from over reaching and declare a mandated religion. This was to protect religious freedom, not restrict it.
Benjamin Franklin stated to a woman regarding the type of government created when the Constitution was signed, “A Republic, if you can keep it.”
Republic governments recognizes inalienable rights of all individuals, which our Declaration of Independence defines and is further defined in the Bill of Rights. Which leads me to another question. Failure to comply with this healthcare bill will impose fines that will cripple businesses, causing companies to close and result in mass layoffs. Is this not a violation of 8th amendment?
“…Life, Liberty and the pusuit of Happiness…” These rights are listed in order of importance and deemed to be interpreted by the individual, but it is clear a government is not to interfere or be destructive of these rights. Instead the government is charged to protect these. Laws must enforce these rights, not constrain them. A bill that causes harm to individuals ability to have these rights – particularly Liberty and pursuit of Happiness – is a travesty in American history.
Simply put, if businesses are forced to close, then this argument is a moot point. I need a paycheck before I need insurance. I can live without all the insurance I may want, but I cannot live without a paycheck. Folks need to stop asking for more, more, more.
Any employee IS free to access any kind of healthcare they want or need. Where are you from? You are free to go to Blue Cross and Blue Shield or ANY insurance provider and get a policy. You can do it today. There is not a single soul in this country who is stopping you from doing that.
What is wrong with you Liberals?
@momfrmr,
Based on that logic, if I have a private business I should be allowed to refuse to serve black people if it is MY PERSONAL BELIEF that they are mud people punished by god. I could also say that I refuse to hire women because MY PERSONAL BELIEF is that women are property and should be at home taking care of the home and I will therefore not hire them. I could also argue that my private business does not want to pay for illegal wars through my tax dollars. I will therefore withhold paying my taxes. MY PERSONAL BELIEF is that the death penalty is immoral, I can therefore kill the guard who is about to execute an inmate on death row because I am saving that persons life. MY PERSONAL BELIEF is that I must sacrifice a virgin before god. I guess you think that is ok? MY PERSONAL BELIEF is that smoking pot is a ritual part of my religious experience, so you can not arrest me for that. MUSLIMS believe
NOBODY IS BEING FORCED TO TAKE CONTRACEPTION OR MORNING AFTER PILLS. Once Hobby Lobby decided to take advantage of the American system and become a BUSINESS, they must follow all laws that every other business must follow. Their personal beliefs DO NOT MATTER.
Hobby Lobby and every other private business does not get to pick and choose which laws it wants to follow.
Mr Plunkett,
That is your opinion but millions of others agree with the Hobby Lobby Family. The governement should not be mandating what an employer should pay for on an health issue. If other companies have been released from this mandate, then ALL companies should be allowed the same. This country was founded on God and don’t say it wasn’t because “in God we Trust” has always been printed on the money. If Obama was really following Abraham Lincolns’s ideas, he would not have put this in Obamacare. But then there is SO MUCH in Obamacare, that alot of people have no idea. By 2015 the people of this country will be revolting. But Obama has only been allowed to be President because God has allowed him to be. Because all this is just working up to the end of time just llike the Bible says. Wake up you Athiest!
I think some people are missing out on one small fact……….Until
Obamacare is fully implemented a private employer does not have to
offer insurance at all…..PERIOD!!! Benefits are NOT government
mandated, nor are they guaranteed!! Once Obamacare is fully
implemented a company will only have to offer insurance if it has more
than 50 full-time employees or full-time equivalents(each 120 hours
per month of part-time labor counts as a full-time equivalent). So if
a company wants to drop down to 49 full time employees OR have 99 part
time workers earning 25 hours a week they don’t have to offer squat!!!
That is what is wrong with Americans, we think we deserve the
maximum return for minimal output!!!
You are guaranteed religious freedom in this country. That does not only apply to being able to attend the church of your choosing on Sundays. Christians model their faith and practice their religion throughout their daily lives. While no one is perfect, we do try to base our decisions and actions around the teachings of the Church. That is obviously the case with Hobby Lobby. You wrote that they don’t sell “Christian things” and are not a religious organization, but starting and running a business is a very personal experience. Your business becomes a part of who you are and a reflection of you. They are not imposing their religious beliefs on their employees by not including abortifacients in their healthcare coverage. The employees are able to access and use them at their discretion with no consequence from the company for doing such. If that particular benefit is of such great importance to the employee, they are welcome to find a company that does offer it in their healthcare package and seek employment there. Since you don’t seem to mind if they have to shut down and a few thousand people will be out of work, it stands to reason that you would agree that a person that is unhappy at their job, for whatever reason, can always just find a new one elsewhere. Since the article states that employees start at 80% above minimum wage, I doubt too many of them would leave over not being provided a free $10 morning after pill, which wouldn’t even be necessary if the employee is taking birth control pills that are provided. This government mandate is overreaching and infringes on the business owner’s rights. And, by the way, standing steadfast in your faith is being a true Christian.
The morning after pill is not an abortificant. It works by thickening the cervical mucus (blocking sperm from entering the uterus) and delaying egg release if it has not been released yet. It does nothing to pregnancies that are already in progress. David Green is not a doctor, and should in no way be making health policy decisions for his employees. If he suddenly decided that Lasix (a blood pressure medication) caused cancer, he would hardly be allowed to rewrite his insurance policies to not cover that drug.
In addition, it doesn’t matter if you are a Christian or a Daoist; your religion when you create a company does not afford you any additional rights. If your company is a non-profit religious company (aka a 501c(3) non-for-profit hospital, etc.) you do get rights. Hobby Lobby does not apply.
Actually, disagreeingcow, Lasix are anti-diuretics used to treat excessive fluid retention and edema in patients with diseases such as congestive heart failure, liver disease, and kidney disease. Mr. Green is not making health policy decisions for his employees…They are still free to access the medications on their own without consequence to their employment with Hobby Lobby, but Hobby Lobby will not cover such medications. It is no different than companies whos insurance coverage does not include elective procedures such as breast augmentation or gastric bypass. The medication is ELECTIVE, meaning that it is the patients choice as to whether or not to take it. Bottom line, if an individual chooses to put themselves into a position in which the morning after pill, or any other pill meant to prevent pregnancy, is needed, then that individual needs to be responsible for providing it for themselves. The company should in NO way be held responsible and made liable for an individuals carelessness and irresponsibility!!!
Insurance, or anything other than a salary or hourly wage, is a benefit and always has been. The mentality of people who refuse to work and provide for themselves in this country is disgraceful. The unions have forced companies to move overseas due to so many demands, and forcing employers to provide insurance, and especially certain kinds, by the government is just tyrannical. Many Americans have no desire to do anything, yet want everything. Like I said, it’s disgraceful.
Sir, you say that Christians should man up. I say sir, that you should also man up and meet the MAN. Start by opening your mind and heart and read the Gospel of John. Jesus died for you and wants you to be His. But obviously, you belong to the world. As others have stated, this is a privately owned company. For the government to come in and dictate that a company has to do anything against its moral or business principles is just WRONG. Also, as previously stated, when Obamacare does go into effect, we all become SLAVES of the government. Of course, slavery has been going on for many decades in the guise of welfare, food stamps, etc. All of these programs were meant to be a help to becoming self-sufficient. Not a lifestyle! God bless the Holly Lobby organization and I pray that they get the ruling they are seeking.
I agree.The fact is that Hobby Lobby isn’t paying for the morning after pill. They subsidize health care coverage in general. Then the insurance company and the patient share the cost of procedures, and no procedure is billed to the employer.
Furthermore, you simply can’t legislate morality; it’s the employee’s choice.
I love that in this country everyone is allowed to express their opinion. However, I think it is important to know the facts when expressing your opinion. First of all you did not see this case before the Supreme Court, because it didn’t go before the S.C. Hobby Lobby petitioned the court for a temporary stay but Justice Sotomayor denied their request – they never had the chance to argue this case.
Hobby Lobby is certainly a for profit organization that sells items that are not necessarily Christian. So? Does running a for profit organization strip them of their rights? Their for profit organization has supported their family and provided jobs for others for 40 years. Isn’t that a good thing?
No one is asking anyone to share Hobby Lobby’s values they are just asking that they not be stripped of theirs.
And as an employee they also have the right to not work for Hobby Lobby. If they dont like how they do things then they dont have to work there. Nobody is forcing them to work there. I stand with Hobby Lobby!
Your argument is a very slippery slope. If you start a business based upon “Christian” principles why should the government butt in? The sad thing is many other businesses are being exempted from this heavy government tax burden called Obama Care. Big joke is that the costs are not going down as we were told but in truth they are sky rocketing upward. What a joke!
It is shocking to me that you can not see how tyrannical your thinking is. This country was built on freedom and liberty, not on the government telling you how to live your life or run your business. Is Hobby Lobby a government-owned enterprise? Do they receive Federal funding? I believe they are a privately-owned company. The government has no more right forcing them to supply their workers with a particular benefit than it has the right to force me, a simple citizen, to buy a certain product, like health insurance. The tyranny of the Left and their FAILED Liberal policies are destroying this country. The evidence is all around us and mounting every day.
For those who are on the side of the government in this case, I can only assume one of two things: either you would also be ok with the government forcing you to provide/do something that goes against your moral conscience -or- you just don’t respect the religious beliefs of the owner of Hobby Lobby. To say that a business owner must forgo basic liberties just because they started a business goes against the free market economic system that, I believe, made this country superior to Socialist/Marxist/Communist countries who do tend to define business as you have.
Reblogged this on That Mr. G Guy's Blog and commented:
My wife spends a lot of money in this store and we will continue to support them.
Mr. Plunkett,
This goes far beyond religious autonomy. As someone who is not really religious, I look at this from the angle where if government can get so far into the weeds of your business as to dictate what pill you must pay for your employees to take, what can’t they regulate?
Looking beyond Hobby Lobby and religion for a second. What person in their right mind would entertain the idea of opening a business in this climate? At any moment the government can come in and mandate you obey any rule they decide to pass regardless of the cost to the employer.
Just because courts have ruled this mandate is legal does not mean it is the right thing to do. I shudder to think of all the potential entrepeneurs and innovators who will choose to not open up a business, not expand, not reach their full potential over fears the government can (and will) insert itself without regard to the impact on your livelihood.
The consequesces of this law will harm far more than it will help.
Well said, Jason. The courts have been filled with Liberals and Marxists in this country who have run roughshod over the Constitution time and time again in order to push their radical Liberal/Marxist agenda. Business is already struggling to survive in this country and the Marxists in this country are only working to make it even harder to do business. Look at how hard it is to even have a small farm in this country, or even run a lemonade stand. People who have had small farms have been stormed by armed officials and even SWAT. This country is losing its mind and becoming more and more tyrannical every day.
If Hobby Lobby can opt out of birth control covered by insurance because it conflicts with religious beliefs, then a Scientologist employee can deny psychiatric coverage; a Jehovah’s Witness can deny blood transfusions; a Mormon can refuse to cover medicine with alcohol in it. Why can’t I start my own church denying workplace safety standards or minimum wage?
Just because you employ a person doesn’t entitle you to make that person’s medical decisions.
I work for a company that doesn’t make my medical decisions, because I buy my own healthcare policy with the money I earn in my paycheck. Any American is free to do the same.
Your ignorance is showing.
Employee sponsored health care is offered in lieu of higher wages. This trend stuck even as real wages remained stagnant (which they have since the 1960s) and health care costs skyrocketed and it is why we have the system we have today. So to say that people should just buy the medication or care they need in the open market is ridiculous. Employee health insurance is the raise people should have gotten so that they could afford health care. Or so that they could afford increased taxes that come with a universal system.
Tell that to people in the ‘high risk’ pool in Ohio. I had Asthma (nothing else was wrong!) and I was quoted $1900/mo for private insurance. I made 10$ an hour.
Well said! For the better part of my life, I have not had the money to buy health care. And guess what?? That’s just fine. When I or my wife did need it, we made monthly payments to the hospital until the bills were paid off. It was that simple. I do not understand what the big deal is about health care. In the first place, they don’t even know if they are ever going to need it. I almost equate them with people who are building underground bunkers for the end of the world. In fact, I’m 48 now and at this time I do not have any healthcare. And guess what. I am not worried about it. My doctor prescribes medication that is on the $4 list when possible. My doctor’s office has a program where they charge you according to your income. And if I have to go to the hospital emergency room or have other things, like surgery, I will just have to make monthly payments, even if it’s for the rest of my life. Honestly. I’ve already paid off thousands of dollars worth of hospital bills by sending in small monthly payments. I’ve even had friends who saved little bits of money for having a baby and they had the baby at home with a midwife. It was much cheaper, no problems, and they were able to pay for it themselves. They didn’t need insurance. For people who suddenly have an unexpected, enormous hospital bill, they should be able to set up an account online for donations so that other Americans can help them with their bill. Life actually can be that simple, rather than passing tyrannical laws that infringe on the freedoms and liberties of the people.
TTJROGERS: That’s great that you’ve always made “payments” on your medical bills, and you’d be willing to do so “for the rest of your life” if – heaven forbid – you had to pay millions in cancer treatments. But you will NEVER pay off millions in medical bills if you are earning a middle class income. That means, in the meantime, the doctors, etc. have to be paid…. and others are being forced to pay for bills that you can never full pay off yourself… If you had a million dollar car loan, do you think the car dealer would let you just make monthly payments on it forever, with no interest? If health care is just another “business” in your eyes, why should they allow you to do that??? How is that profitable for them? How is that responsible of you to expect that? And you think an online donation account would help for the “unexpected, enormous hospital bills”? Well, Mr. Personal Responsibility, Ron Paul, is a shining example. He only supports an unregulated, free-market health care system (remember: sick people are never profitable for insurance companies), yet his ex-campaign mgr/friend was uninsured, got sick, and died, leaving $400K+ in medical bills. Despite Ron Paul’s connections and status, he was only able to help raise about $50K for his friend. Who do you think eats the rest?
ttjrogers: one more thing, IF, heavin for bid, you come down with an illness that means you can no longer work – how exactly can you be making those “monthly payments” for the rest of your life?
I might be wrong about this, but, I don’t think there is a single insurance company out there that will pay “millions of dollars” worth of hospital bills for a single cancer patient. Is there? I have a friend whose wife had a brain tumor. They operated on her and she had to have so much work done on her, along with therapy, and she still is not right. The hospital bills were outrageous, and their insurance wouldn’t even cover them. I think I’ve heard the same story from other people. Those kinds of situations are uncontrollable, and you just do the best that you can do. Actually, the first thing to do is not to have those treatments. My one aunt was diagnosed with cancer and was given 6 months to live. She went to an herbalist, changed her diet like he/she said to do, took the herbs and vitamins that he/she said to do, and within a year or so had NO cancer in her. GONE! My uncle had cancer and was also given 6 months to live. He went to the herbalist and the herbalist looked at the tests from the hospital and said, “Your condition is very advanced. I can not cure you, but, I can slow it down a lot and you will be able to live longer. If you would have come to me sooner, we could have gotten rid of it.” My uncle followed the directions explicitly and lived for several YEARS more. So, this is the cancer deal, since you brought it up.
I have to disagree with your comparisons here. Psychiatric coverage is intended to bring about healing or peace to the mind; blood transfusions save lives; medicine as a general term covers a huge spectrum, and is excessively vague, making it ineffectual here.
The issue that David Green is arguing, is that his religious beliefs view abortion as murder. As such, he views this federal mandate as a directive to provide access to a pill that kills. Even Jehovah Witnesses do not believe that blood transfusions take life or are murderous. On the contrary, their position is that a person should not try to “artificially” preserve life by having a blood transfusion because that procedure can save or prolong it. David Green is not requesting exemption on coverage for all contraceptives, but only those mentioned specifically in his letter that are perceived to destroy life. Your suggestions run counter to this fundamental argument he raises.
You can’t pick and choose here, though. It doesn’t matter the effects or how small, if you show support for one religion it sets a precedent for others. That’s how things work.
This picking and choosing is the equivalent of some lawmakers deciding that they want prayer and such in school, then becoming angry when someone of a different religion attempts to take advantage of the decision.
However, they may be ‘perceived’ to destroy life, but they do not. They thicken cervical mucus to stop sperm from entering the uterus, and delay egg release – if the sperm has already reached the egg, it literally does nothing. His ‘belief’ that the morning after pill is an abortificant is incorrect, which raises the question – what if you had the religious belief that Valium would kill someone? Should you be able to say that no employees should ever be able to get Valium?
Hobby Lobby IS NOT opting out of birth control in general. There are other means of birth control. Hobby Lobby is taking a moral stand on ONE type of birth control, the morning after pill. That is their right. Quality health care is still available, just not that ONE THING.
So if I work at one of your stores you are choosing my health care options for me?
Not at all, Christa. If you choose to work at a Hobby Lobby, they offer a healthcare package. And it does include birth control. It just doesn’t include the morning or week after pill. You still have a choice to use it or not. If you choose to use an abortifacient, then you pay for it. Since they pay their employees a starting wage of $13.05 per hour (80% over minimum wage of $7.25 an hour), if you decide it’s more important that your employer pay for your abortifacients than making $13.05 an hour and paying for it yourself, I hear McDonalds and Taco Bell are always hiring. Good luck.
Wow. Way to keep your Christian values by taking a shot at a person you don’t even know.
And from another comment of mine in this thread:
Employee sponsored health care is offered in lieu of higher wages (not in addition to). This trend stuck even as real wages remained stagnant (which they have since the 1960s) and health care costs skyrocketed and it is why we have the system we have today. So to say that people should just buy the medication or care they need in the open market is ridiculous. Employee health insurance is the raise people should have gotten so that they could afford health care. Or so that they could afford increased taxes that come with a universal system.
Hey, “religion,” what did I say that was taking a shot? That they’re free to work at McDonalds or Taco Bell? Is that a shot now? Since when did telling the truth become “taking a shot”? Nice way to deflect from what was actually said. Not surprising though, because your position is indefensible.
You go on to talk about how wages have become stagnant and insurance is offered in place of higher wages, yada, yada, yada. But again, you ignore the fact that a Hobby Lobby employee makes 80% MORE than your Taco Bell or McDonalds employee.
Let me make this easy for you. An employee (or potential employee) has a choice: either they can take a job making minimum wage and let their employer pay for their abortion inducing drugs; or they can take a job with Hobby Lobby, make $13.05 an hour to start (with wage increases for four years running) and pay for their own abortifacients. Let’s see. Forty hours at $7.25 an hour is $290 a week, $15,080 a year, before taxes. Forty hours a week at $13.05 an hour is $522 a week, $27,144 a year, before taxes. Even if you took an abortifacient three weeks every month for 12 months straight, at $10 per pill, a job at Hobby Lobby would cost you $360 a year out of pocket, your gross take-home pay is $26,184. You’re still better off taking the job at Hobby Lobby. Plus you’d get the evenings and Sundays off.
Math and logic sure are hard for folks on the left.
Religionisnotunderattack, please look in the mirror. You began a demeaning conversation. If 1greeneyedgal’s comments offend you, then think of how offensive you are. The whole thing is that if you give government the right to come in and tell anyone how to run their business or their homelife, then you become a slave to said government. Hobby Lobby is saying that they don’t want any part of the things that they find morally and religiously offensive to them and that the government shouldn’t be telling them how to run their business…even in the arena of health insurance. Bottom line, don’t work for them and you won’t have a problem. They have the right to run their business by the faith they based it on in the beginning. PERIOD! Oh and by the way, Christianity is not a religion, it’s a relationship with Jesus Christ.
religionisnotunderattack, you are a hypocrite. How can you call someone out on being ignorant and demeaning of others and for “taking shots at someone you don’t even know” When you are CONSTANTLY doing exactly that to people for their opinions that do not match your own???? Practice what you preach and stop expecting from others what you, yourself, are not willing to do!!!!
You have the option to NOT work for them and buy your own healthcare insurance.
First off, who put a gun to your head and forced you to apply for a job to work in one of my stores?
Additionally, why do I as an employer have anything to do with how you pay for your health insurance? Do I pay your car insurance, life insurance, home owners insurance?
Why are still looking at that one tree, don’t you realize there is an entire forest around you?
This is a very difficult subject, I see both sides of the coin. But I wonder, are all your employees christian and share the same beliefs? Is this a condition upon employment? and do they have to have the same set of morals that you have? Does Hobby Lobby then have in place for any employees that might fall off of the moral bandwagon and get pregnant out of wedlock, programs to help that unwed mother? raise an unwanted child? or adoption programs? and support financially during her childbirth? And financially while raising that child? and childcare? college costs? Does hobbylobby family support this mother and child? Just curious, because if hobby lobby as a company feels it can make medical decisions as momentous as this.. do they continue life support as in financially for as long as the child continues college? into adult hood? Help me understand who can make these decisions… I applaud Hobby lobby for allowing their employees time with family and that stuff.. but medically… step back..
I hear what you are saying here, but do you also believe that an employee has some responsibility for their own actions? ie, The actions they may have taken that would lead them to feel they must take the morning after pill?
I didn’t get the vibe from his letter that he was parading a moral bandwagon, just that it is a violation of his own conscience to provide and co-pay for a policy that offers contraceptives perceived to destroy life (I didn’t read anywhere, this article or others, that he opposed contraceptives in general, just a few specific contraceptives).
“I hear what you are saying here, but do you also believe that an employee has some responsibility for their own actions?”
No. Just based on that statement alone you obviously do not hear what others are saying. Many people don’t conform to the same beliefs as you and in this world things beyond your control can still happen (and mistakes within your control can, as well), and they should be able to take steps to rectify such issues. Christians seek forgiveness through prayer, why can’t others through a pill?
Wow religionisnotunderattack!!!!! So the company should be responsible for the personal, private actions of the employee?? If the employee chooses to put themselves in the position to create a pregnancy, Hobby Lobby gladly provides formal birth control methods..ie: the pill, injections and other prescription forms. It is the individuals personal responsibility to get this from their doctor should they choose to be in a sexual relationship and not create a child. If, however, the individual chooses to be carless and irresponsible, why should the company be forced to ‘clean up their mess’. There are consequences to the choices that we make..both good and bad…and each person should be held accountable for theirs. It is NOT the responsibilty of Hobby Lobby to hold the hands of their employees and pay the consequences for their bad decisions!!!! It’s like saying that a company should be held responsible if an employee drives drunk and injures or kills someone as a result of their poor judgement. It is absurd and ridiculous.
You don’t see both sides of the coin. Hobby Lobby does not require its employees to be Christian or share their Christian beliefs, although, like Chick-fil-A, I’m sure open positions at Hobby Lobby are very attractive to Christians.
Since when is it an employers responsibility to pick their employees up when they “fall off the moral bandwagon” (whatever that means)? People make choices in their private lives every day, for good or for ill, that can effect their employ-ability. One of my cousins (by marriage) was a raging alcoholic. After working for his company for years in a high profile position, he lost his job because he would not stop his destructive behavior. Was it his employer’s job to rescue him from himself? He also lost his home, wife, kids and eventually, his life. He alone was responsible for the decisions he made.
I don’t know of any jobs that will pay for help for unwed mothers. Or put their kids through college. I don’t know of any jobs that will help wed parents with these things either. If you can find such a position, do all you can to keep it and isn’t it great that you have an employer that offers such benefits? But you can’t go out and insist that every company do the same.
Hobby Lobby isn’t making medical decisions for anyone. They’re simply stating they will not pay for abortifacients. They have not said they will fire anyone who chooses to abort, either through surgery or pill. Their employees are still free to do such things. At their own expense. That is the side of the coin you fail to see.
I’ll first state that I do see both sides of things here and that the plan does limit the actions of the employees based on financial costs. If Hobby Lobby doesn’t wish to provide for the pill, then shouldn’t people get a raise instead? That healthcare is what is offered in place of it, so why shouldn’t they? Or how about just being a decent human being and deal with the fact that people have different beliefs than you?
With that, I’m ignoring the rest of your post except for one part that struck a nerve.
My father runs his own business and is responsible for insuring his workers and their families. It should noted that we have the utmost respect for each other, despite having insanely differing views–he is a staunch, religious, Republican who would side with Hobby Lobby on the religious front, yet would still find it necessary to stay out of people’s personal issues, but provide healthcare. Why? Because it is the right thing to do. This paid off for him a few years ago when my mother started having major issues with alcoholism (after 25 years of hiding it). Alcoholism is not an issue many people can readily control–it is an addiction and a disease (and a terrible example for you to use). Because of my father’s coverage plan, my mother was able to get the help she desperately needed at low cost to them personally (and guess what, it turns out that so was one of his employees!). So shame on you and your family for completely turning your back on your cousin and saying he’s to blame.
@Carol Thomas ~ Hobby Lobby doesn’t mandate whether or not a woman can take an abortifacient. They just do not want any part in the taking of a human life. Why do women think that because someone, company / insurance / government, isn’t going to pay for something for them, that they are being denied the ability or access? They are not making ANY medical decisions. I hear this over and over and it is so disturbing.
Carol Thomas, Hobby Lobby doesn’t have to step back. The government should be stepping back. Employees know what kind of company they are seeking employment with before they are hired. If they choose to work for them, then they have made that decision and not the government. It’s funny how people want the faith-based companies and entities to take care of them with any and all problems, but they don’t take responsibility for themselves.
Reblogged this on Massafrass and commented:
The Government/President CANNOT make businesses or people go against their religious/cultural beliefs. Nor is it ANY business’ RESPONSIBILITY to offer or fund birth control , emergency contraception, or abortions. These types of decisions should be handled by the individual and their insurance or physician. Personally, I am against abortion and feel for rape victims. Sometimes this isn’t an easy decision. But God, and ONLY GOD can take control of these situations. His grace and mercy is amazing, and he said, “Let the little children come unto me.” So I must believe that these precious gifts, who God created to fulfill their potential are protected and placed into the proper hands, eventually. We can only offer love and another option to adopt these future doctors and lawyers out to parents who are baron and hoping to hold and raise the next potential President!
Praying for them!
Reblogged this on Catholic Glasses.
you say one of your 2 goals is to focus on people more than money. you also stated that your family has lived the american dream. why then can’t you sell american made products that keep americans working??
My health care plan doesn’t have to cover my hearing aid or other “non-medically necessary” procedures. Those are out-of-pocket expenses that I have to cover, so why on earth should a company be required to pay for emergency contraceptives that are optional for a person to take?
This is a very slippery slope. I fully support Hobby Lobby, the Catholic Church, and any other employer to determine in good faith what their moral code can and cannot support with the funds they have been entrusted with. The government has been sticking it’s nose into areas where it does not belong for far too long. We do not need more legislature, we need more freedoms. Hobby Lobby is in no way mandating what employees do with their bodies, they are simply saying that they won’t pay for the things that do not fit in their moral code. I applaud their efforst to remain steadfast and not to crumble under popular opinion… but I am starting to think the opinion of the people may not be what the government would like us to believe. And I also think people are tired of the government telling them what to do all the time, especially where religious freedom is concerned.
Hobby Lobby is not denying their employees preventative birth control. Meaning pills or other contraceptives taken before hand to prevent pregnancy. They are simply denying what they feel are abortion drugs. I was taught growing up to take responsibility for MY actions and that every thing I do will have a reaction and consequence. There are ways to prevent unwanted pregnancies and then there are life threatening medical reasons to end pregnancies, both of which should be covered. I do not fault a privately owned company from taking a stand on their beliefs. I support them. Just as I would support any other Privately owned company for standing up for what they believe in.
Perhaps the issue is not with giving insurance, but the fact that we now NEED insurance in order to get quality healthcare.
It seems to me that Big Pharma wants to make us pay for healthcare… don’t they have a conflict of interest?
Just my humble opinion, but I think that if we became healthier as a nation… labeled (and avoided) GMOs, lost weight, exercise more… that we could save on healthcare tremendously. It would not help everyone, but it would help a lot of people a lot of the time.
As far as the religious aspect goes, I understand why Mr. Green is frustrated. Employment is ultimately an agreement between two or more parties. If one party is not satisfied, then they should be allowed to renegotiate or back away. I don’t think REQUIRING one party (the employer Hobby Lobby) to provide certain terms that are highly objectionable is right.
They’re not objecting to minimum wage here…. they’re objecting to human life termination.
I don’t even understand why this is an argument. Many companies have been able to decided what they will and won’t cover for their employees for years. Why the government want’s to meddle in this is beyond reasoning. Larger companies have self insured to be able to hold on this this option. Just look at your medical coverage book you get each year and you will see all the things they won’t cover. Hobby Lobby has the right to do what they want with the money they make. No one makes you work there or purchase items from their store. Also many of these drugs cost very little to get. Therefore, If you want to spend your $10 bucks and buy yourself the morning after pill, then fine do that. But, stop trying to make a company founded on Christian principles pay for your screw ups. Take some responsibility for yourself!
Ummmmm big picture folks, the morning after pill is NOT abortion. The morning after pill keeps an egg from fertilizing and cannot abort an already fertilized egg. The moring after is emergency contraception ie; rape etc. And there is no ‘week after pill’ Plan B (morning after) will work for up to 72 hours as log as the egg isnt already fertilized, If keeping an egg fm being fertilized is abortion then women have abortions every cycle.
I was looking for a comment like this. Some of these people don’t know the difference between birth control and an abortifacient. And I’ve never heard of the week after pill. Smh
@terri nobles: thank you. No one wants to think about this though, because it messes with the whole “when does life start” idea. which is the basis for those that want to deny this type of medical coverage.
I do not see a reason for the company to have to pay for emergency contraceptives. You can get them over the counter. How does the irresponsibility of someone’s personal choice fall on the company to fund the solution to their problem? This is something that can be avoided. Plain and simple if a woman does not want to get pregnant then she should use a normal method of contraceptive and take proper precautions. How is that such a difficult concept? Paying for emergency contraceptive should not be the newest addition to the the HOBBIES at HOBBY LOBBY!!
Your first mistake was thinking the Obama adminstration cares about your situation. They actually want you to go out of business as a deterrent to other businesses about claiming religious liberties. But i encourage you to pray and continue being led by the spirit in doing what is right according to Gods word. Think of it as a mountain that shall be cast into the sea if you believe.
Pretty soon companies like you will be complaining about covering cancer or heart attacks because it’s not humane to keep people suffering longer than necessary!! And what it all boils down to is your bottom line. The government has to do it this way for the above reason…so companies don’t weasel out of their obligations to their employees. Church and State have always been separated in this country. This is the way it has to be. It is not your morality which comes into question when an employee makes a choice to use a method of birth control that you do not approve of, it is hers! By simply following the law, you are blameless, you would be doing what is right. I wish I had your problems. I don’t have 500 franchises….my husband is disabled and we worry where our next meal is coming from and if I can ever get a winter jacket, used or otherwise. Be grateful for what you have and be willing to do the basic things that you are supposed to do for others.
Emergency contraceptives are the same as cancer treatment and care for heart attacks? In what world do you live in that sex is that important? In my world, treating cancer is completely different than paying for a $10 pill to deal with the possibility that I got knocked up because I was too irresponsible to use my birth control (that is provided in HL’s insurance plan) or practice safe sex*. If you think emergency contraceptives rank right up there with cancer care, you have a strange perspective. I’m sorry your husband is disabled, and if you worked for Hobby Lobby, I bet they’d go out of their way to care for your family. Because caring for someone is about a whole lot more than just providing them free access to a $10 emergency contraceptive. Look at the way they treat and care for their employees. If you think the best way to care for someone is to provide them emergency contraceptives, so be it. My personal opinion is that I’d rather have an employer that pays me well and offers a good healthcare plan, because then, if I want to be irresponsible with my sex life, I can afford the morning after pill on my own.
* I acknowledge that the morning after pill is sometimes used in the case of rape, and this is an entirely separate matter. Statistically, this usage equates to a very small percentage of pill’s users.
So…you’re wondering where your next meal is coming from or your where your new or used winter jacket is coming from and you pay for internet access and computer to come on here and make a weak defense? I’m amused.at where your priorities are.
@jbow3: I don’t think I personally attacked you. If I did, I apologize. I feel that you personally attacked me which just shows everyone on this page what kind of person you are. If my circumstances amuse you, that also goes a long way toward proving what kind of person you are. Wow, what a Christian thing to do. Who pays for my internet computer is none of your business. My comments were not a weak defense because they were not in defense of anything except my opinion which is what I thought this discussion page was all about. Now I see that is a place to attack people who don’t agree with you. Would anyone else care to respond about this kind of person’s attack on people and their circumstances:? Or is jbow3 in the majority on this issue?
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Have you heard of public libraries and free Internet access? Don’t assume.
[...] Tragic letter from The Hobby Lobby CEO: results of personal freedoms slipping away (thebrennerbrief.com) [...]
We always say that things happen for a reason. Mr. Green and family, it is quite possible that God so blessed you with your stores so that when this day came, you would have the money to stand up for Christian rights and beliefs. I can’t imagine the grief this must be causing you, but please know we are praying for you. God has this situation in his hands. Just continue to do what is right. G. Guilliams
If government can now force Christians to pay for insurance that covers abortion-inducing drugs, shouldn’t they also require other religiously-based businesses like Halal food markets to sell foodstuffs considered haram? After all, in the words of the Honorable Joe Heaton(OK Judge who ruled against HL), a food market is not a religious organization. Right?
[...] all of the support gathering around Hobby Lobby and our own post about the letter from the CEO going viral, Joe Grabowski created the Facebook event, Stand with Hobby [...]
So does that mean that Hobby Lobby is aiding the rapist that raped the employee who hadn’t taken her birth control pill yet.
It’s ironic that Mr. Green thinks that his inability to interfere in the most personal of healthcare choices by his employees is a violation of HIS personal freedoms.
We will pray for you and your company. We never really lose when God is head of our lives. Thank you for standing up for what you and your family believe and many other people as well. Remember, God is in control! God Bless you .
Reblogged this on Fjstiles78's Blog and commented:
Really the question of religious beliefs is irrelevant here. We, as a people, have given our government the right to regulate industry. Many of you have suggested that an employee can always choose to work somewhere else and that is true, but you neglect the obvious correlate that companies dissatisfied with the regulation by our government also have the right to relocate to a different country with less governmental regulation. Hobby Lobby, by choosing to remain in this country as a company has given its tacit acceptance of regulation by the federal government. The same common sense rule that mandates that private citizens cannot choose which laws to obey and which to ignore apply also to companies. As such the law is clear, Hobby Lobby can either obey the mandate, close their business, or relocate to a different country. Their freedom lies in their ability to choose from one of these options.
For those who will inevitably make the argument that this law is not the problem, but rather that the problem lies in the excessive power that the government has to regulate industry, I offer this in response. Open a history book. Many of you have made the claim that allowing this level of control equates to becoming slaves of the government. Maybe you should research the early twentieth century and discover what unregulated business results in. I believe the group of enterprising capitalists who came to be known as Robber Barons created a system much more akin to slavery, than any the current government is capable of creating. But, hey I could be wrong, I guess I am a leftist liberal for basing my beliefs on books other than just the bible.
First the two pills he is talking about ARE NOT ABORTION PILLS. The are nothing more than heavy duty birth control pills. He needs to get his facts straight. RU486 is the ONLY abortion pill.
Second this is hypocrisy at it’s finest. He doesn’t want to be forced to cover these two pills, yet he wants to force his beliefs onto his employees. Yes, they don’t have to work there, but that’s a mute point.
And birth controls pills can be life saving for those that think the comparison of the other religious beliefs are not the same thing.
This is plain crazy. We are having things shoved down our throat that isnt going to help us or make life any better for us. This is wrong and if they can make an exception for one business then they can do the same for Hobby Lobby. I love this store and after reading this I appreciate it even more. We are behind you all the way. Seems to me like they are trying to get rid of all of our local businesses. So in the near future I will shop only at local businesses when I have to shop. Praying that all goes your way. God Bless
To the Green family…thank you! Thank you for being a big business that stands up for Biblical principals. I wish more were like you. Thank you for being an example for us small business owners who will one day have to face persecution of our own. I only pray I will have the strength to stand up to the giant the way you have. I pray for y’all and I pray God bless’ your family and your business!
Is there any way you could use this to share the gospel? Perhaps sharing with your employees in a pamphlet about your beliefs? And absolving yourself before God, from “If they choose to use these drugs”. That you pray they would not use them, offer a counselling program before or a phone line to talk about alternatives? I’ve just been praying for you about what you can do. And if God can(And we know he can do anything!) use this for something good and bigger than we ever imagined. I will continue to pray for Hobby Lobby and the leadership. Blessings.
I know it says we have to follow the authority over us. But when King Darius Made the law that the people could only pray to him. David know the law and went against it. God still blessed David and was with David even when He was in the Den.
So If God lays it on your heart not to follow the Law for reason that are written on your heart. Then you must first answer to the Lord and then the law.
I love it when people try to quote scripture and don’t understand it first of all. Poor religionnotunderattack. Remember, to understand it correctly, the Holy Spirit has to give you the meaning…otherwise, it’s just words on a page. By the way, the Bible is the written form of the Word of God which is the living Christ. Study to show thyself approved.
Kacie, it was not David, but Daniel that refused to cave into the praying to Darius edict. And Darius was heartbroken to think that he had been duped into killing a man that he respected. Daniel was in the den. And religionisnotunderattack did not eve catch this simple mis-thought. Not such a bible scholar is he.
@religionisnotunderattack, Thank you for both contributing meaningful and valuable content to the forum, and for your open-mindedness to see the issue objectively.
@kksign74, The quality of your posts are significantly diminished in value purely on account that you’re leading your argument solely based on the contingencies of your heart and emotions rather than fact. Your argument might stand greater if you weren’t challenging the faith of another merely based on their ability not to impose their beliefs on another. Questioning another person’s character is not a strengthened argument, nor is fluffing your own character with claims of virtue. As a “Christian” or person of faith, your one goal should be to make yourself right in the eyes of God and seek acceptance and forgiveness for your own short-comings (or sins). It should not be to judge others; lets leave that up to the One who judges.
One another note, this argument has gone completely off topic when we have to degrade another for their “religious beliefs” based on this argument. @religionisnotunderattack was right from the beginning. This is an issue of business law, not religious law. So to even be concerning yourself (or ourselves) with issue over whether or not someone has read the Bible is presumptuous. Businesses operate under the laws of the country, not of their religion. While a majority of America may be Christian, we are a diverse country that should proudly boast its freedoms and liberties to all, regardless of religion. That being said, as a business, laws should apply as a objective nature to all those whom they employ (which while Hobby Lobby may be owned by a Christian family, may have other religious affiliates working for them). And in that case, to hold exemptions on health freedoms from your employees based on your own claims is biased and subjective (to both Christians and non-Christians, alike). And, before you might retaliate with “they don’t have to work there if they don’t like it” pr something similar – I will proactively state that is not a valid argument. If we begin giving all businesses the “right” to do whatever they feel they want to do with their business and employees can pick whether or not they want to work there… well, I think you can see (without explanation) what direction that would head.
So back to the purpose of this comment. Thank you @religionisnotunderattack for adding valuable and purposeful commentary.
I think this whole religion excuse is just that – an excuse to not provide employees with healthcare. If they are so concerned about their being forced to compromise their “Christian principles” then why do they sell–and profit from– millions of dollars worth of Chinese imports? China is notorious for its human rights abuses against people of faith. China jails people of faith. Heck, China even FORCES abortions on their citizens. Seems like money is more important than “Christian principles” for Hobby Lobby.
joemidtwn, the government is making it an excuse not the other way around. Sorry, but turning the other cheek doesn’t mean that we have to let you shove your beliefs down our throat. Seems like you think you know the hearts of all people. Wow, you could save the world. Wait….Jesus did that if you only accept His sacrifice for your sins.
I’m not expressing my opinion on the U.S. government or Obamacare or even abortion, so you have no idea what my personal beliefs are much less having them forced down your throat. Seems like you think you know my heart when clearly you have no idea. I’m simply saying it’s hypocritical of the Greens to cite their “Christian principles” as the reason for opposing abortions in this country while they make 100s of millions of dollars through trade with China where people of ffaith are prosecuted and jailed and FORCED to have abortions. It looks like their decision is motivated by greed. Christian hypocrites give all good people of the Christian faith a bad name in the eyes of the non-believers and athiests. And shame on you for assuming to know whether or not I have accepted Christ as my savior.
So let me get this straight. It’s OK For the owners of Hobby Lobby to enforce their personal beliefs upon all of their 15,000+ employees? In doing so THEIR personal freedoms are slipping away. Hobby Lobby is just another large corporation trying to gain special treatment from the federal government to protect their bottom line and like other evangelical whores they are using the “God angle” to do it. If I worked for an employer like this I would run not walk away. They could give a flip about their employees much less our economy. Ask David Green how much of their merchandise sold is made in the U.S.A. Not even half of 1%! MADE IN CHINA!!! I hope they’re bankrupted and are forced out of business by these fines. The people over at Michael’s are laughing their heads off.
[...] Tragic letter from The Hobby Lobby CEO: results of personal freedoms slipping away. [...]
All of you “Christians” are giving those who follow Jesus a bad name. 40 years ago, when Hobby Lobby was founded, abortion was an acceptable practice for Christians who were mostly pro-choice. It wasn’t until the late 70s that Jerry Falwell (and others) decided that life started at conception, not birth. (http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/30/my-take-when-evangelicals-were-pro-choice/)
So it was a human re-interpretation of the Bible as to what was/wasn’t murder. And some of the drugs provided are not KILLING a life, it’s preventing the possibility of conception. Two completely different things. Hey, HL, instead of standing up against abortion, how about standing up against your employees having sex out of wedlock?
If Hobby Lobby is going to refuse to give their employees health coverage because they are doing something that is sinful, then they better follow the bible literally and fire any employee who has a tattoo, a male who cuts his beard or any woman within 7 days of her period.
You have my support and prayers! Blessings!
Prayers for you and your company that Gods will prevails. So thankful for people like you who stand up for what they belive in. Gods blessing upon your family and your business.
I saw this a while ago, and I respect their beliefs but I disagree with their lawsuit. I also disagree with other non-religious institutions like Catholic hospitals refusing to cover birth control. Say I’m a Hobby Lobby employee (I’m not) and I want a prescription for Plan B. Of course I can get one. but their insurance refuses to cover it because the Hobby Lobby owners say it goes against their Christian beliefs. They say that being forced to cover these “Abortion-causing drugs” interferes with their freedom of religion. But what if I”M not a Christian? What if I am a Christian, but my faith isn’t the same as theirs? Or my beliefs about the point of conception being where life begins? Now those owners are forcing their religious beliefs on me. Now, MY freedom of religion is not being respected, now MY Constitutional rights are being threatened. Hobby Lobby is a great place, and I won’t stop shopping there, but it is NOT a religious institution. (And I’m skeptical that “thousands” of companies have been exempted from this but not Christian organizations. I’d like to see that list.) Maybe they’re right–maybe the government can’t force them to change their policy. But their employees CAN. And it will only take one lawsuit from one employee, claiming what I have claimed above, and they will have to change or else be accused of religiously discriminating against their employees. You might claim that Hobby Lobby would not be discriminating against me or forcing their beliefs on me, just because they don’t allow their insurance to cover plan B. But I think they would be. And it would be up to a judge to decide whether or not to agree. You could say, as many have in this thread, that I am free to find employment elsewhere. But what if I don’t want to? What if, like so many in this country, I can’t leave my job, because I desperately need this health insurance for my family? Should I have to submit to their religious beliefs and pay for Plan B myself? I don’t believe so. Bottom line, whether Hobby Lobby sues the government or an employee sues Hobby Lobby, someone’s going to lose out. It will happen. Maybe not tomorrow, maybe not in the next year, but it WILL happen.
Or they’ll close their doors and the ex-employees will have to buy their own insurance. Be careful how you play your cards, they might beat you at your own game. And why do you seem to think you know the will of the Hobby Lobby employees?? It never ceases to amaze me as to how many people hate God.
The Hobby Lobby family does not force its beliefs on its employees. But….they know where the company stands before being hired. If you don’t like it, don’t take the job. And a simple aspirin can be a great contraceptive. Take one aspirin and hold it between your knees and pregnancy can be avoided.
Being confirmed in the Catholic church means nothing if you don’t Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior. And it just goes to show you don’t understand the Word since you think it’s just words on a page. So stop quoting it if you don’t understand it. I feel sorry for you that you are so lost and don’t have a close relationship to God the Father. Denominations are man-made….catholic, baptist, methodist, church of christ. Christianity is a relationship and God-led. As for what the Holy Spirit reveals to each man, that is something the Father controls. But if you study the Bible without the Holy Spirit, you will just see it as words on a page. Sounds like you have head knowledge without heart knowledge. You will be in my prayers.
I am so thankful that you will use a condom so as not to procreate. I also have no objections to condoms. As to addressing the point of a pointless post…accept my apologies for your lack of humor to the aspirin comment. THE GOVERNMENT IS SHOVING ITS BELIEFS OR LACK THEREOF ON EVERYONE, INCLUDING THIS COMPANY AND APPARENTLY YOU BOUGHT INTO IT. Poor thing!!
Maybe they could compromise by only offering the morning after pill since all it does is prevent pregnancy, no different than birth control!
We will be praying for you, your family and your company. Blessings!
I’m looking forward to the Going Out Of Business Sales at the local Hobby Lobby’s. I’ll be stocking up for my Gay Rights Parade Floats. GLITTER! GLITTER FOR EVERYONE!!!!
[...] death-drug mandate. The sheer malice of the Obama administration is astounding. Please read this open letter from David Green, Hobby Lobby's founder and CEO, which you are unlikely to see printed in mainstream news sources: [...]
@Religionisnotunder attack, a bipartisian (I mean that as in atheists and christians) looked at the facts, the treaty you quoted does indeed say that and was pointed out to say that as to not offend those muslims and try to get what the nation wanted/needed when that did not work marines landed at Trip. The conclusion that anyone with an open mind comes to is this “The nation was indeed founded on Christian principals, morales and the christian bible in general. The problem is that people confuse a country founded on christian principals with a christian nation.” If you look when the country was founded the bible was required reading in school as well as universities (emphasis on universities as they required tenants of faith to be memorized) furthermore prayer was said at all government meetings, which comes down to as long as the government does not have a state religion required then they can bring in prayer for example or even if they wanted print “In YHWH we trust” so long as it is not required that everyone follow that religion. Forbes has an article on this very subject that I suggest you read to educate yourself, since you like to cherry pick and listen soley to revisionist history.
P.S. Atheism is a blief as well, so it can be considered a religion (since one cannot prove the non-existance of something that does not exist in addition the resurrection of Yeshua would be an accepted piece of evidence in court supporting a christian’s side)
This is ridiculous. You’re going to deny your employees coverage of birth control? People like this are precisely the problem. You issue a letter like this for all the country to read complaining about how the government attempts to control your business all while the very right you’re fighting for is to control how your employees can use their healthcare…all in the name of ‘religion’. This is pure bullshit. I sure hope they give one hell of a maternity leave package.
If they want birth control they can pay full price thank you very much
[...] a letter regarding the company, Hobby Lobby, that is forced to file suit due to the Obamacare requirement to [...]
Way to go Dave Green!
It’s refreshing to see some CEO’s stand for the values that made our Country great!
http://sunriseinamerica.wordpress.com/
http://www.whitehouse.gov/healthreform/myths-and-facts#healthcare-menu
The link above is straight from OUR government’s website. This actually takes the content from our Healthcare Reform Plan and breaks down and debunks common myths. One myth that is dissected regards the perspective that the healthcare reform will now provide support to abortion. Please check this out to gain additional understanding about the policies that will take place.
I believe in facts, balance of the constitutional values, and justice for all. I do also believe that there is a power higher than any courts on earth.
As Psalm 37: 30-31 indicates that words of wisdom come when good people speak for justice. They remember God’s Teachings, and they never take a wrong step.
So just remember no matter how you dissect any situation, there will always be two sides to every story. We run into this scenario everyday where some opinions try to trump and overpower another’s opinion. Just has God has given you the intellectual ability and passion, He has done the same from the opposing viewpoint.
What’s funny is that sometimes we have to just tune in and listen just a little closer to what other’s are saying by utilizing the gifts that God gave us. Most of the time you’ll discover they want the same thing you’re looking for: the virtuous things <3
Thanks for allowing me to share my thoughts and do appreciate seeing all the previous posts from both sides and perspectives. I just hope that we can get back to a common ground and work for the good of all! Peace to each and everyone of you!
Wow. I will never shop there again. Morons. They are NOT abortion causing drugs. People need to get educated and stop believing whatever rhetoric that Fox News shovels out.
No sympathy. You are obviously making a political statement on Christian grounds. This violates the constitution that has been touted so many times here as well as the Bible by wearing your faith on your sleeves. What about the personal freedoms of your employees who deserve to get the same healthcare everyone else does?
Are you deceived? Or have you just come to America? Anybody in American can have healthcare and health insurance. Just go get it. Nobody is stopping you. When the government passes a law that businesses have to pay their employees’ rent, are you going to support that, too? And when the government passes a law which forces all Americans off their private property in rural areas and relocates them to predisignated population centers, are you going to support that, too? This issue is about government tyranny, not just religious freedom. So far as I’ve seen, it only seems to be Liberals who can not understand this. Some Liberals are calling for gun owners to be rounded up and executed. If that law is passed, are you going to support that one, too?
I’m curious how you feel about laws against same-sex marriage since they are based on religious beliefs. It seems to me that if you truly believe in freedom then you can’t possibly be in favor of either of these (ban of same-sex marriage or the contraception mandate). They are both laws based on someone’s beliefs and violate the beliefs of others. If you want laws based on your beliefs that not everyone agrees with, then you shouldn’t be surprised when laws pop up that you don’t agree with.
My beliefs on marriage are based on the definition of marriage. “Same-sex marriage” is an oxymoron. I truly believe in freedom. I believe in equal marriage rights for all – like we have now. We are all free to marry. Marriage is the union of one female and one male. If someone doesn’t have the desire to marry someone of the opposite sex they have that right. The fact that a person is not attracted to the opposite sex is not me restricting their rights – they just don;t have the feelings that lead to marriage. I believe if a person has an attraction for the same sex and want legal rights they should and do have the ability to draw up legal contracts. True, that is not exactly the same as marriage. Not because I’m mean and want to take away their rights – simply because that’s reality.
I truly believe in freedom which is exactly why I oppose the contraception mandate! No one is denying birth control to anyone – people are free to buy their own – other corporations/agencies can give away all the contraceptives they want! The opposition is to forcing someone to pay for it.
The government made marriage a legal contract. In the US, you are not married unless a marriage certificate has been filed in the county where the marriage took place (excepting some states that allow for common law marriage based on length of cohabitation). YOU can believe in whatever definition of marriage that you want to believe in, but for the government to deny some the right to engage in a legal contract that others are allowed to engage in is discrimination. Just as it was discrimination for the government to outlaw interracial marriage prior to the Civil Rights movement. BTW, the same Bible verses were used by opponents to that back then as well.
I didn’t cite a bible verse.
re: “I didn’t cite a bible verse.”
You didn’t have to. DOMA was based on what proponents called “the Biblical definition of marriage based upon the ‘fact’ that the US was ‘founded on Christian principles”.
Okay, so you have a problem with Webster’s, too? Truly, I don’t want to argue about this. What I wish we could do is come to an agreement on the mandate. I understand that not everyone thinks the same way and I am cool with that. I wish people could disagree with Hobby Lobby’s view and still respect their right to have that view and understand why the government shouldn’t force them to pay for it. I am not Catholic and I support their right to not be forced to pay for birth control when I personally don’t have a problem with birth control.
Actually, I see both sides of the debate here. I just don’t like it when someone brings up “marriage is between a man and a woman” and states it as fact. It is a belief, one in which you are fully entitled to. You are just not entitled to tell my daughter that your belief must govern her life decisions. Once government decided that marriages needed to be registered, it lost the “right” to deny them to certain citizens while granting them to others.
Okay. I guess a definition is not necessarily a fact, but that is how it is defined in the dictionary.
Here lies the problem with the word marriage. Marriage means two very different things. One is the joining of a couple before God and the other is a legal contract recognized by government. Since you cited Webster’s, I see that you only mentioned the first definition (1.a(1)) and none of the remaining five which don’t say anything about the sexes. Same-sex couples are not asking for religious marriage. They are not asking the law to force your church to marry homosexuals before God. They are simply asking for the legal right to be recognized as a joined couple so they can have the same rights as heterosexual couples. If long ago the government recognized that contract as a joining or a union and didn’t use the word “marriage” then there wouldn’t be such a problem today. Stop getting hung up on the word marriage and realize that they are not trying to infringe on your religious beliefs.
That being said, despite a shocking 106 thumb’s down to my original post, I don’t see how anyone can justify supporting one law based on religion and then claim to be violated by another law based on religion without admitting to being selfish.
Let’s call “shacking up” marriage, too, then – same for Mormon plural “marriages” or for the forced marriages arranged in India. Changing the name doesn’t change what it IS – but sure, if you want to use a word the way you want to, go ahead. Besides,nobody was stopping same-sex couples from shacking up any more than opposite-sex couples.
@Chris688
Fair point on the definition of marriage. I did just use the first definition, because that is the most common not because I was trying to be dishonest. However the secondary definitions do count as well, so you do make a good point. I also understand the difference between a Christian marriage and a legal one, so again that is a good point. (I would say that I do think that some same sex couples do seek Christian marriage, but that is probably a small percenage and it wouldn’t happen at my church, so it is just a small quibble.) The only other point I would make on the subject is that I don’t feel I am trying to put my religious beliefs on anyone with this issue. I’m not trying to change the law! We can argue over where the original definition comes from (but it is not just in America or Christianity or since the 1950s), but it is the one we have on the books and Christians aren’t the ones seeking to alter it. I completely agree that two consenting adults should have the right to conduct their legal affairs however they see fit, regardless of gender. I am sorry I got into this debate, because I truly am not losing any sleep over this issue.
I am losing sleep over the erosion of religious liberties and I don’t think that makes me selfish. ( Now I may be selfish but not because of this issue) The thing is, I do believe in separation of church and state they way it was intended – to protect the church from the state. Jesus doesn’t force himself on others and neither shall I! This problem is the government forcing beliefs on corporations or their owners. No one is being denied anything except those who oppose this law. No one is saying that people can’t have these drugs; we just don’t believe that Hobby Lobby has to be the middle man.
In case you didn’t know it, all of our laws have been based on religious belief. If you study the history of law in this country and in England, you will learn that. Besides that, laws can be based on societal norms; however, as history has shown, norms change. And the way that they change, unless rectified by some act of Providence, is in a degenerative direction. Originally, the law can say, “You will not murder.”, and then after some years, depending on who comes to power and how degenerate the society becomes, it becomes lawful to murder. The Liberals ignore the need for absolutes and thus base their lives on their own particular ideas or feelings for today. Tomorrow, they may feel differently. Rather than holding to an absolute standard in which high culture, learning, and real progress can flourish, they refuse due to the need for a critical element called ‘self-control’. Using your argument, when the next big civil rights issue emerges full force, that is zoophilism, what will the Liberals position be? If they follow their reasoning, they will have to support it, because there is no reason for not supporting it. They have no argument. And when the Satanists want to eat the aborted baby fetuses, where do the Liberals stand? When the militant homosexuals are able to lower the age of consent to 10 years old? When American Muslims insist on marrying 9-year-old girls? Of course, it’s okay. And the degenerative nature of the society continues. These societies are NOT fiction as they have been recorded throughout history.
Mr. Pearce, whether Hobby Lobby’s decision is based on Christianity, Islam, Wicca or atheism is irrelevant: it is THEIR moral choice, and THEIR liberties which Pres. Obama is constraining. If the government told you that you had to do something which violated your morals, I am quite certain that you would feel differently – perhaps require you to own a weapon and serve in a local militia?
Be careful which liberties you refuse to protect, there will be no one there when they come to take your own liberties.
Hobby Lobby has every right to establish their operational directives and if it is based on Christian Principles, then they have the right to object to government mandates that violate these Christian principles. If an employee doesn’t like the company philosopy and directives, then they are free to choose another employer. This is their choice.
Wise up to Obama tactics which are based on his Sol Alinsky’s beliefs, not God’s.
How does it violate the Constitution. Sounds to me like you have drank the Cool Aid, with the myth of separation of church and state in the Constitution. It is not there. In fact, you might be sympathetic to communist ideals believing in the separation of church and state since there are only three countries in the world that have something in common. . .Communism. Those constitutions, The People’s Republic of China, Cuba, and Russia. As Christians we need to stand up to these folks believing the myth that we cannot be involved in government and speak up on government issues from a Christian worldview. These humanistic little ranters have nothing intelligent to say.
BTW, if Christianity is so false, then why are you little monkey’s nephews so upset. Why don’t you leave us alone and let us have our words in the free market of ideas.
As we have learned from the Left, dissent is not allowed. You must meld with the collective. Resistance is futile. Beep. Beep.
Not melding with the Left if the Left is dead wrong with an oppressive worldview. My goal is to occupy Mordor. LOL. I will resist at all cost, including my life.
First of all, if you OWN a business, you have the right to run it the way you want to. You have the right to offer various or no benefits. You have the right to operate the hours and days you so choose. An employee of said business also has rights. They have the right to choose to work there or not. They have the right to be treated fairly, given raises based on merit, right to safety on the job, etc. They do NOT have the right however, to make their employer pay for healthcare or anything else that the owners of the business believe is against their religious beliefs, whether said employee has the same beliefs or not.
Like others here have said, Hobby Lobby is not firing anyone because they choose to have an abortion, use a morning after or week after pill, etc. They are simply saying that they refuse to pay for it. And again, if these items are more important than working for a company who pays their people fairly, gives them time with their families that most other companies do not, that person can choose to work elsewhere.
When we decide to seek employment somewhere, we are told of the wages, the hours, the benefits or lack thereof of the job we are seeking to obtain. If we do not agree with or like what comes as a part of this job, again, we can seek employment elsewhere, no one is forcing you to work for Hobby Lobby or any other company.
And whether you believe it or not, I fully believe that Hobby Lobby owes its success to following God’s Word and running their company in a way that does not go against their beliefs.
God bless Hobby Lobby and the Green family for standing up for what they believe in, whether it’s politically correct or popular or not. What God thinks of us is far more important than what our fellow man thinks.
Amazing! So proud of this company – I grew up with them in Iowa and now travel around the world but also love Hobby Lobby at Christmas time…. I socialize and Blog @LMDMinistry
I created an account just to respond to this. This is so stupid. Does Hobby Lobby’s HMO cover Viagra, a sexual aid that allows older men to have intercourse in or out of wedlock? My guess is yes…most of them do. But birth control is evil. Forget that Right Wingers want to take away lower class entitlements and outlaw abortion which will give way to a population boom of future frontline bullet sponges and McDonald’s employees. Forget that birth control works for treating ovarian cysts in women and if a young woman seeks birth control for treatment, she’ll be labeled by Hobby Lobby as a whore, slut, sinner, charlatan or baby killer. No. Let’s concentrate on a Bible passage that says “no man shall kill a woman’s baby” in a section of the Bible where we pick and choose what we want to believe in. God says love the neighbor as thy self…which is why our drones are killing “insurgents” in Pakistan. What about the liberty of the people who work for you, Hobby Lobby? I didn’t know you were Christian until this article…so you’re obviously not doing a very good job of testifying your faith. Personally, I hope a rival buys you out and you can move to Texas and live out the rest of your days. Good riddance.
You talk and use the exact same words that eugenics freaks use. Can you even step back and listen to yourself?? There is no overpopulation. That is a lie started by eugenicists. And you are going to kill a baby because it might end up working at McDonald’s???? You don’t have any higher aspirations for that child?? It could actually end up becoming a famous author, dancer, musician, scientist, engineer, or even a school teacher. You need to read and then re-read your post. I’m not trying to be mean, but you are one, sick puppy.
I don’t think Hobby Lobby has ever said that birth control is evil or that they will not pay for it. The issue here is abortifacients and too many of these people are getting them confused with birth control. Most Christians don’t have a problem with birth control, but they do have a problem with drugs that cause a miscarriage once conception has already taken place. So get your facts straight before you go making false accusations.
Lady, BIG difference from TOLERATING someone else’s moral choices and being forced to PAY FOR THEM directly.
Restricting access to birth control does not REQUIRE there to be more births – it only means people have to use self-restraint in order to avoid it.
And NOBODY is saying they can’t HAVE birth control, only that an employer shouldn’t be REQUIRED to pay for someone else’s (im)moral choices.
Can someone tell me what the ‘week after pill’ is? I’ve never heard of it. Thanks!
Insurance benefits – like salary, like vacation days, like any other benefits – are part of an employee’s compensation package. Once the employee receives that compensation, the employee is free to use that compensation any way he or she sees fit. An employer cannot tell an employee that, since they pay the employee’s salary, they have some say over how the employee spends that salary. Nor can they tell an employee that he or she can’t go to Las Vegas for vacation, say.
The Hobby Lobby is compensation employees with insurance benefits as part of its compensation package. It is not responsible for – nor does it have rights over – how that compensation is used. Decisions regarding medical care should be made by medical professionals, and decisions regarding coverage should be made by insurance companies – not employers.
It is, quite simply, none of the Hobby Lobby’s business how an employee uses healthcare benefits.
1000 likes for this comment! Amen!
“It is, quite simply, none of the Hobby Lobby’s business how an employee uses healthcare benefits.”
When Hobby Lobby is paying for those benefits, yes it is. Hobby Lobby gets to decide what they’ll pay for or not. Does Hobby Lobby want to pay for sex change operations? Hobby Lobby gets to decide if they want to pay for it or not. Does Hobby Lobby want to pay for Botox and face lifts? Hobby Lobby gets to decide if they want to pay for it or not. Does Hobby Lobby wish to pay for boob jobs? Hobby Lobby has the choice to include such procedures in their insurance coverage or not. Does Hobby Lobby want to pay for abortifacients? Hobby Lobby decides whether or not they’ll include that in the insurance package they offer their employees because Hobby Lobby pays for it.
Now, if Hobby Lobby doesn’t believe in abortion, but you as their employee do, it is your decision whether or not you’ll take the money they paid you in that paycheck you earned and put it toward an abortion. See, that’s how it works. When you pay for it, you get to decide.
Other than minimum wage, employers are not required to offer their employees more than the base line in pay. Employers decide how many vacation, sick and personal days they will offer their employees. When you own the business, you get to make the rules.
Hobby Lobby isn’t telling employees how to spend the money they earned. It would behoove the government to quit telling businesses how to spend the money they earned, as well.
All of the above mentioned items are not covered under any health insurance plans. But if anyone knows of an employer that will pay for botox, please post the company so I can go work there. I doubt the government will ever require that employers do pay for these types of things, but hey, you never know. They are only requiring for employers to pay for emergency CONTRACEPTION, not an abortion pill. There is a difference. Unfortunately for HL owners, the government has required companies to provide health insurance for their employees. And unfortunately, business owners can’t pick and choose what medications are and are not covered. So that being said, the most logical way to look at this would be that it is now the employees responsibility to make the right choices. If not, God will judge them, the employee, not the owners of HL. I think this is an obvious statement and that being said, it’s more about the bottom line to the owners of HL. I would respect them a whole lot more if they just said that rather than playing the religion card.
Hobby Lobby is not “paying for” those benefits: the insurance company is. Hobby Lobby is providing, as part of its compensation package, insurance coverage. It is (as I stated) part of its employees’ compensation packages, along with salary, vacation, etc. Once those benefits are passed on to the employee, they become the employee’s property, for the employee to use as he or she sees fit.
The argument that Hobby Lobby is being “forced” to accede to others’ religious beliefs has it exactly backwards: in fact, if Hobby Lobby were able to dictate the terms of how its insurance benefits can be used, it would be forcing its owners’ religious beliefs upon employees. In the case of religious-owned hospitals, for example, this can be a serious issue of discrimination: in smaller communities, such religious-owned hospitals may be the only health-care providers, and such discrimination effectively would mean that Christians and only Christians could work there – or choose to get fewer insurance benefits for the same cost as other employers. Does Hobby Lobby propose to refund a portion of the insurance cost to employees, since it would eliminate certain benefits from its employees’ insurance packages…benefits that are already paid for in the cost of the package to Hobby Lobby? (That is: if Hobby Lobby and another business both offer an insurance plan from the same provider, Hobby Lobby’s proposed restrictions on coverage would reduce the value of services covered…so it would be only fair that it refund some amount to the employee for the services paid for but made unavailable.)
The bottom line is this: Hobby Lobby is legally required to avoid discrimination in its hiring practices, which means it cannot hire only those who share its owners’ religious beliefs. To impose those beliefs upon its employees is, itself, discrimination.
(I don’t hear the Amish complaining that they have to pay taxes part of which go to pay for technological infrastructure…even though they themselves do not use that infrastructure. Perhaps these Christians should be more Christ-like in accepting that others have different beliefs, and they cannot impose their own beliefs upon their employees, in the form of denying them insurance coverage that does not violate those employees’ religious beliefs.)
Who is paying the insurance company?
Hobby Lobby is. Who is paying Hobby Lobby? Its customers are. Who’s paying them? Their employers. And who’s paying them? THEIR customers.
This could go on forever. But I rather assume you wouldn’t want your employer telling you what you could or could not spend your salary on…even though your employer is the one paying you the money you’re using.
One can choose to not shop at Hobby Lobby and one can choose to not work at Hobby Lobby.
And Hobby Lobby does not even have to offer health insurance. They can just drop it. And, since it is their business (I hope you understand that), if they so decide, they can just shut the whole thing down. End of headache. You Liberals have already destroyed entire sectors of this country’s economy, and you will not be satisfied until you’ve shut the entire country down and fed it to the dogs. So many Americans have become so greedy.
You’re right, an employer shouldn’t be able to tell an employee HOW to use their benefits – whether to go to one doctor or another, whether to go to a chiropractor or an MD, whether to follow Christian Scientist practices or traditional medicine.
But WHAT benefits are OFFERED by an employer – THAT, the employer DOES have a right to decide.
In general, I don’t object to Obamacare except in this one instance: we have now allowed the government to decide what exactly IS “insurance” – what must or must not be included, for example. How long until the government starts deciding what care someone does or does not get – both WHO gets the care and WHAT care they get.
What will you say when the GOVERNMENT tells you how you will use your “benefits”?
Hobby Lobby isn’t telling anyone what they can or can NOT do. They are simply stating they will not pay for it. There is nothing wrong with that. Women are still quite capable of obtaining birth control if they want to use it. Pathetic to even be arguing over this. It is their company, seriously, when did we allow the government to RULE this country? When are the people going to start governing again?
Hobby Lobby is not paying for it, in the sense that it has to sign off funds for everyone’s individual insurance claims. Insurance does not work that way; Hobby Lobby does not receive an itemized invoice for every medicine or procedure each of its employees receives. Hobby Lobby is instead demanding the right to enforce its owners’ views upon its employees – by arguing that if the owners don’t like birth control, they should be able to remove employees’ ability to acquire birth control with the insurance that is part of employees’ compensation packages, even though the employees themselves have no moral objections to birth control, even though the employees’ medical professionals may have very good reason to prescribe birth control pills. When Rush Limbaugh displayed his ignorance about birth control in the Sandra Fluke incident, one factor that gained more publicity was that birth control pills have used other than birth control ( outlines some aspects of the issue).
Employers do not have the right to impose their religious beliefs upon their employees. Birth control is not illegal.
I am curious: since Hobby Lobby wants the right to refuse insurance coverage for birth control – without regard for circumstance – I assume it also refuses coverage for Viagra and the like…since, after all, there’s no guarantee that the employee seeking Viagra is married, or wishes to utilize the medicine’s effects with his wife and not another woman. How is covering Viagra – which, then, can be used by an employee in a manner HL’s owners presumably consider sinful – any different from their covering birth control? Any number of medications might aid one in committing sins or treat medical situations arising therefrom…so in covering them, is HL encouraging such sinful behavior? I hope you’ll agree these arguments are rather absurd…for that matter, if “money is the root of all evil” what is HL doing paying its employees at all? Or being in business, at all?
(A final note: Are you all aware that when the state of Virginia prohibited denial of benefits for prescription in a state law passed in 1997, under conservative Republican leadership, and signed by conservative Republican governor George Allen…and this law had no exemption even for any sort of religious institution? – note the article, partisan as it is, nonetheless links directly to the text of the actual law on the Virginia website) Yet there was no outcry…which is why I strongly suspect much of the hoo-haw on this is primarily partisan in nature, an objection to the “Democrats’” law.)
Sorry – the site stripped my links. I’ll try again: The article on other uses of birth control: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/getreligion/2012/03/double-effect-and-the-birth-control-debate/
The article on the Virginia legislation: http://www.bluevirginia.us/diary/5947/gov-george-allen-signed-contraceptive-coverage-into-law-no-exemptions-for-religious-institutions
Not sure why my second post, listing the links the website stripped from my post above, was not let through by moderators. But the link on other uses of birth control (such as controlling ovarian cysts) may be found by searching “double effect and the birth control debate” (it’s at patheos.com), while the other on the Virginia legislation, may be found by searching “George Allen signed contraceptive coverage” and is at the bluevirginia.us site.
I have “shared” your letter on my facebook page … even though we do not have a Hobby Lobby in our town ~ Greenville, NC ~ sure wish we did!!!!
It’s a Law, plain and simple. Just as a business must provide Worker’s Compensation insurance, or disabled parking, or bathrooms, so must they provide health insurance. Lawsuits like this one clog the legal system. Take a step back and simplify. I believe the owners must comply with the laws of the country that has blessed them with a successful business. I’m certain the employees will be required to contribute payment for the group healthcare. How their employees choose to use the insurance they pay for is none of their concern.
Your argument doesn’t hold water because the ability to pass a law does not make the law just or righteous. In Communist China, they have many, many unjust laws that have taken the people’s natural rights and freedoms away. Would you use this argument with them? No. To use this kind of argument, you would have to believe that any and all rulers only have the people’s rights and freedoms in mind. And the fact is that they do not.
This is not communist China. This is the United States of America, where we are not supposed to have the government taking away our freedoms.
This is not Never-never-land, either. Humans are humans, whether they’re red, yellow, black, or white. If you think that there is something inherently ‘good’ about Americans, you are horribly mistaken. Even the Constitution, as wonderful as it is, is actually only words written on old paper. It has no ability to defend itself, and is thus able to be trampled by tyrannical people, even well-meaning ones for that matter.
The Founders designed our government, as codified in the Constitution, with extensive checks and balances – like requiring laws to pass BOTH houses, AND be signed by the President – for the very reason that it should be HARD to have the government MAKE things happen. They feared the POWER of the government in a democracy, the power of a “tyranny of the majority” – that if 51% wanted something, it could be imposed on the other 49%. That is why most CAME to America in the first place, to NOT have their government impose anything over their liberties.
The government should NOT be able to make someone pay for another’s moral choices.
I agree with not going back on your prinicples, however providing help to someone is not a horrible thing. It’s not like Hobby Lobby is selling birth control. They are providing the option to get it and it is up to their employees to receive it. Now, if Hobby Lobby believes its Christian employees will choose to receive birth control, perhaps they should screen their candidates better? I just don’t see the harm in helping your fellow American obtain something they can’t provide for themselves…
I don’t know why people do not understand this simple concept. Hobby Lobby is NOT saying they are not for “birth control”, they are not for abortion and pills that cause abortion to happen. Those are two separate things. If you confuse abortion or abortion causing pills for birth control, you have more problems than I thought. These were the same accusations falsely thrown at Mitt Romney. He was not against birth control, just abortion, yet over and over liberals constantly told lies against him.
Again, abortion is not birth control!
That is exactly what they are saying. Because the meds in question are NOT abortion pills. They are not causing an abortion, but PREVENTING CONCEPTION (emergency contraception). If a woman hasn’t conceived yet, how can a woman be having an abortion? The drug in question in not RU486 or “abortion pill”. There are a lot of misconceptions as to what the morning after pill is and it is definitely not causing an abortion! Do a little research on the drug and it will become clear.
Maybe you should do a little research. The idea of emergency contraception is obviously to prevent contraception, but it doesn’t always work. If the egg has already been fertilized then the morning after pill will prevent the embryo from attaching to the uterine wall, therefore causing a miscarriage. While this may not be the intention, in some cases it CAN actually have the same effect as abortifacients.
ummm, the birth control pill and IUD do the same thing. Yet the birth control pill, because it is simply hormones, can be used to regulate hormonal imbalances that cause a whole host of gynecological problems. Currently, there are no other drugs that mitigate said problems (perhaps because nobody really cared about them as much as they did about ED, since we have Viagra, Cialis, and Cialis for daily use). Therefore, based on your logic, we should also outlaw that birth control pill, and force half of the population to endure costly (and PAINFUL) disorders simply because they had the bad luck to be born with uteri?!
Well that is ridiculous. You would rather the company screen their employees better and discriminate rather than just not provide that coverage and leave the choice to the employee? Wow, seriously, how much sense does that make?
I pray that this works out for not only you but for all Christian believers. Other religions have won the right to tear down our religious beliefs and strenghten there own. It’s about time that we win some of our religious protections.
I am proud of Hobby Lobby for taking a stand on their principals. We are losing our freedoms, one step at a time thanks to DC and our failing morals in the American society but at least there are some good people left who are willing to stand up against tyranny which is where we are at today. It is no longer the English oppressing this country, it is our own government.
Obama’s actions are like Hitler’s, babies in the womb are like the Jews, the drugs the president is pimping are like the killing chambers the Nazis used to exterminate so many millions of Jews and others…I’m glad Hobby Lobby is taking a stand against this “lawfully” illegal mandate. May God bless all that you are doing to stand against the wiles of the Devil.
“the drugs” are being pimped by big pharma which supports the republican party, obama is a dem in case you missed that in the election….if you have something to say make it at least partially educated.
Big pharma supports the republican party??? Where is your citation for that statement?? Obama just gave tax breaks and made sure that GE, one of his big contributors, can continue to make billions a year in profits and pay ZERO taxes. ZERO. You need to dig deeper.
Where does GE come into this discussion? They are a capital goods and financial services firm…GE Healthcare makes medical imaging and diagnostic equipment (X-ray, CT, ultrasound, MR, PET, etc.). Yes, the produce the machines that help make pharmaceuticals as well, but calling that “big pharma” is like saying potato farmers are in the “fast food” industry.
My point is that the corporations scratch the back of whoever is in power. Obama has received huge contributions from major corporations just now (AT&T and Microsoft) and he has accepted them, even though his policy of 4 or so years ago was to not allow them. The whole bunch is altogether corrupt.
I’ve said this before, when Liberals stop their hypocrisy, they will support the unborn. It is so hypocritical to say that they are concerned about people’s lives and then support the shedding of innocent blood. They can’t even support an innocent baby that has no defense!! It’s even worse than people who go around torturing animals. It’s a sickness.
Excellent letter. But very sad to see our freedoms being eroded.
Hi! What freedoms? Every time I ask this, no one is brave enough to answer me. Are you brave enough?
If you really have to ask this then it’s probably not really a matter of who’s brave enough to answer you. No one wants to waste their time updating you on the current situation America is in. If you don’t already get it, then I doubt any amount of explaining is going to change anything.
Why is it a waste of time? It’s a simple question. I’m well aware that the reason no one can answer this is because it is only a person with delusions of this nature who say this. Nowhere have I been able to find which freedoms are being taken way. All I see are a lot of blogs by people off their meds who believe this. I also work in a psych hospital and it’s sad to see how many who think that way are. Have a blessed day and may you all find a path from darkness to light.
I wonder if Hobby Lobby is aware of all of the drugs that murder people daily in the United States. There are so many drugs that are marketed as “safe” but people die or develop permanent side effects as a result. I always find it interesting that the same people who are anti women’s reproductive health never talk about this. Honestly, I don’t think “pro lifers” care about the lives of anyone unless they’re a fetus. If Hobby Lobby believes that contraceptives cause death, I want to know if they are covering anti depressants (suicide risk) or anti convulsants (those have some serious side effects, including death) or steroids like Prednisone, or stimulants like Adderall (can cause cardiovascular side effects and sudden death.) Tylenol causes liver damage if you take too much. I mean, these are serious side effects, some of which are worse than say, the morning after pill which does not actually cause any kind of death what so ever. I wonder if Hobby Lobby is aware of this (they may want to consult with a Pharmacist) since they seem so concerned about drugs that cause “murder.”
The thing is, a lot of those drugs also help a lot of people. So does the morning after pill and other types of birth control. These situations aren’t black and white, obviously Hobby Lobby has forgotten about situations of domestic violence and sexual assault or situations where a woman is disabled and it would be dangerous for her to have a child (or are we disabled people not allowed to have sex lives?) It’s up to the patient and the doctor and science to decide what is best for that situation. Some people consult with their religion for guidance, others do not. It’s a shame that Hobby Lobby has decided that they’re going to push their coping mechanism (aka religion) on all of their employees.
But I’m glad they have made this letter so that I know where NOT to shop.
God bless you Hobby Lobby. Keep standing up for Jesus!
After all the controversy about abortion, it’s so amazing to me that our lawmakers would be forcing all Americans to fund drugs associated with abortion. So out of touch! So insensitive! Pro-choice should not equal pro-entitlement. Forcing it on all Americans is as radical as making abortion illegal. It’s irresponsible for them to slide this into healthcare legislation, especially when the whole concept of Obamacare is a hard pill to swallow for many.
If you really want to follow God’s Holy Word, then step down and shut your doors. Do not take people to court. Do this and you trust in God alone to provide and work this out. The battle belongs to the Lord. Yes, many people will lose their jobs, but then many people may speak up. Going to court is an action into your own hands, does not show your faith in an Almighty God who is able to save you from the firey furnace just as He did for Daniel’s friends. If someone takes your coat, give them your cloak also, if someone slaps your cheek, let them slap the other one, never repay evil for evil. Yes, stick to your convictions, yes, follow God. …Good bye Hobby lobby, This is your Isaac, on the alter to be sacrificed, and God will provide.
But even if He does not, we will not bow down.
Too bad you don’t truly understand the turn the other cheek or any of the other sayings you pulled from the Bible. Christians are not YOUR doormats. We are about the only ones on here who are tolerant of the world’s ravings. The world on the other hand, even though the by-word is ‘tolerance’ is anything but tolerant. They hate anything with the word Christian applied to it. Reason: Satan is the prince of this world and he rules it with an iron fist. He hates God, but read the back of the book (Revelation)…God wins!!
And Hobby Lobby is not asking you to bow down to anything. Poor misguided woman.
What’s funny is this is about “being stripped of rights”, but I can guarantee if I didn’t hire someone because they were christian and I’m not religious I would be served with a lawsuit.
Goddamn, you people are fucking stupid. Moronic Christians acting like the federal government is expecting the CEO of Hobby Lobby to be scraping 8-month-old babies out of women’s cunts in the break room on their 15-minute breaks.
Hobby Lobby is a corporation. The CEO is worth over $4 BILLION. They’re making a LOT of fucking money in this country; therefore, they have to play by the rules. Have an abortion, don’t have an abortion. Take birth control, don’t take birth control. Do whatever you and your family want in your OWN time, Hobby Lobby, but you CANNOT and WILL NOT dictate what your healthcare packages are going to mandate for your employees. And if you can’t deal with that, close the doors to your shitty stores now. Someone else will take your place.
And by the way, I think if your God was so concerned about this, he’d probably have dropped a note or something down letting us all know. Fucking rubes and your myths.
Raymie, I learned a long time ago that people who are really ignorant throw curse words and foul language into everything. You prove to me again that this is so true.
Your behavior says it all. Shame on you. And your last name is Rogers? Your ancestors were godly Christian people. They helped make this country, and with Christian values.
You sound like a pitiful, unhappy, lost human being. the first word in your post was very offensive and says alot about your character, or lack of. You are a sad human being and all I can think to say is you need prayers! You and everyone else in this world who has no knowledge of the very author of life. I praise hobby lobby for what they stand for and are willing to fight for!
Please refrain from swearing. Your comment has been flagged. Stay civil.
Reblogged this on faithfulseeds and commented:
“We believe people are more important than the bottom line and that honoring God is more important than turning a profit.” – David Green, CEO and Founder of Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc. What’s next? Hysterectomies for little girls too? Such a shame. I applaud them for standing firm. Will be supporting Hobby Lobby for staying FAITHFUL!
You guys! I have wonderful news!!! The morning after pill does not actually prevent implantation…only fertilization! So in NO WAY can anyone try to argue that this is somehow an abortion of the handful of cells (or “baby,” if you’d like) that would have been created by the next day! (Check any legitimate source).
Does that mean we can all calm down now? My goodness. There are just so many more important things to be upset about. As Christians, we need to be able to think for ourselves about what those issues might be. I know the knee-jerk reaction is to be angry at anyone with a dissenting opinion, but please at least take a minute to at least think about it.
I’ve seen about 50 comments from people that are being ignored stating the fact that THIS IS NOT AN ABORTION PILL THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT! IN NO WAY DOES IT CAUSE AN ABORTION! The “abortion pill” is the RU486 pill, and this is not what is being disputed. The morning after pill is simply another form of CONTRACEPTION. It PREVENTS CONCEPTION from taking place. If HL wants to deny this drug, it would be the same thing as denying birth control pills. Can a doctor please give HL’s owners a quick lesson on what these pills really are? They can not truly believe that they, personally, are sinning by providing their employees with health insurance. Give me a break! They are just playing the religion card to get out of paying in. And the argument that “employers shouldn’t have to pay for their employees irresponsibility” is not valid. So should any medical condition caused by a persons “irresponsibility” not be covered? That’s not how it works friends! An example would be for myself: I suffer from a skin condition called rosacea. It flares up when I eat spicy food or drink wine. I try to watch what I eat and not drink a lot of wine (if Jesus drank wine, I see no harm in it), but sometimes, I just can’t help myself. The second I eat some spicy Mexican food, sure enough, my face turns red and I break out. So, I have my prescription cream that I smear on, and just like that, poof, it’s gone. Should my prescription cream for my rosacea not be covered because I irresponsibly chose to eat Mexican food? NO WAY! Because that is not how it works. What about people who have a poor diet and therefore develop and suffer from diabetes? Should their insulin or other meds not be covered because they’re “irresponsible”? Or someone who practices unsafe sex and contracts on STD? Should that not be covered because they’re “irresponsible”? That’s great, let’s not treat people with STDs and just let them spread it all around. I think you see where this is going. How can an employer pick and choose what they feel they should cover? I would be really irritated if they told me they wouldn’t cover my rosacea cream because I was irresponsible in my choice to eat Mexican food. Just as I would be irritated if someone told me they wouldn’t cover the morning after pill because I was irresponsible in my choice to have unprotected sex. I get that they don’t want to pay for an abortion or an abortion pill. But that is not what these pills being discussed are.
On that note I’d like to add that I’m VERY happy that I’m self-employed and that I pay for my own health insurance. I’d also like to add that I am a confirmed Catholic and I have my own personal CHRISTIAN beliefs on what is right and wrong, but no employer should be allowed to make any religious-based decisions for their employees. Just sayin’.
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/06/morning-after-pill-plan-b-abortion-implantation-personhood
Poor mnstylist, Hobby Lobby is NOT pushing their Christian beliefs down anyone’s throat. The employees that want what goes against those beliefs can quit. But I believe you’ll find that most of them enjoy the freedoms that time off in the evenings and on Sundays gives them and the nice starting pay they receive. Christian’s don’t have the option of picking and choosing which part of the Bible to believe or not. We are to portray Christ in all things at all times and Christ would NOT pay for anything that would harm a baby. You’re Catholic, you ought to know that children are precious and that Obamacare is trying to force Catholic hospitals and children’s homes to comply to things that are against YOUR church’s beliefs. Defend that or throw at stone at your own church and faith.
Clearly talking to you, kksign, is like talking to a brick wall. The morning after pill is NOT harming a baby. You are a loony bird and make all Christians look bad.
Amen!
Having worked at the Hobby Lobby Corporate Office, as secretary to David and Barbara Green’s oldest son, Steve Green, I am most definitely have strong convictions that the
family members strive to portray their lives as religious people, but N O T that of Christian people. Their stand on this issue is one that they seeing as making big profits for them as individuals and as a collective family. If they are going to use the bible to find grounds for the stands they have taken on the abortion issue, then they must also look at their stand as it pertains to the rest of the Bible. The same bible that they are using against abortion, also states that we must abide by the civil laws as of the land. There are no and, ifs or buts about abiding the civil laws. I have so many things that come to mind regarding how this family individually and collectively have have always chosen to ignore the laws of the land that they feel they are above obeying. By no stretch of the imagination do I approve of all President Obama is trying to do, in an effort to convince America he is only doing what is best for the American people, but neither do I think the Green family of Hobby Lobby,etc. are taking this stand because of their religious convictions. The Greens have always been and will continue to be only interested in the almighty dollar!
The owners of dominos, papa John’s, and chick filet did the same thing and the sheeple all followed along. But in the end, how is only one day going to help them? In my town, these stores are always empty. Glad you said this because I think this too. They saw it work for the others.
if you were really concerned about personal freedoms you should have spoken up about bush and his patriot act.this is just another company bitching about operating costs
Lol! Why should they when bush is one of them? Conservatives are hypocrites, plain and simple.
[...] Tragic letter from The Hobby Lobby CEO: results of personal freedoms slipping away. [...]
I may not share your religious beliefs, and I do not share your views on abortion, but I 100% believe that the Federal Goverment should not be forcing people or business into a medical insurance policy that they may not want or need. I also believe that the feds should not be forcing me/us to pay for the healthcare of others. Most importantly, I believe that the goverment should not be violating anyone’s Rights as listed in the Bill of Rights of our Constitution, and I think the goverments actions in this case violates several of your Rights. Good Luck , God Bless, and I stand with you Holly Hobby.
The first Bible verse I memorized was… Acts 5:29 …we ought to obey God rather than man. Honestly, I never thought I would see the day where obeying God would be against man’s law, but sadly I am.
Hobby Lobby things have changed a lot in America. I am really sad to see this. Basically people want more hand outs and want to work less. They want Obamo care. Actually I understand almost no one has even read this entire bill of what it covers. People will take anything when it’s free. It used to be or we all thought that the gov’t was for the people but we see things changing. I hate to say this but a lot more changes are coming. I have been reading these comments and some of them are so ridiculous. Actually it would be better if everyone had to pay for their own medical care. They could live any type of life style they wanted and they pay for their pills, whatever kind they want for whatever they need. Also I see that a lot of people are against God. Nothing new, even the Bible says, the fool says there is no God. So really a lot of time is wasted on all these posts. If I were you I would do what I feel is proper and not even bother asking people to comment. Sorry to say this but American is heading in the wrong direction and people will find that out when it’s too late. Good luck Hobby Lobby. Fight for what you believe is right!
This is probably the most truthful comment by a non Christian I have seen. Amazing. I applaud you. Just wow. People are looking for handouts? So, you must REALLY hate poor people. Very Christian of you. Brava!!!!
How many products do they sell that are made in China factories where adults and children are forced to work under horrendous conditions for pennies a day. Are they trying to buy from supplies from USA companies and/or other countries that treat their people like human beings. I really do not know the answer, there are no HL close to my home. Being a Christian company, I hope they only buy supplies made in human-rights-friendly countries.
I’ve lived in Communist China for almost 9 years, and I can honestly say that the Chinese now have almost all of the “rights and freedoms” that Americans have. In addition to that, China is doing very well economically due to the integration of various “capitalist” policies. Americans continue to shout about the pay of Chinese workers in China, but that is due to several reasons. First, the labor force in China is enormous. It’s easy to find people to work. Second, the Chinese still hold onto the value of work, which many Americans now do not do. The Chinese are NOT afraid to work. They will work their guts out. Third, the money that the Chinese are making in the factories is far better than half-starving on the farm back home. In their country, they are blessed just to be able to eat meat 4 times a year. Here, Americans have been spoiled with not only eating meat every day, but wanting to live in their own 4-bedroom house with a color TV in every room and at least 2 cars in the garage. There are certain civil rights that the Chinese government still violates, but America is actually hypocritical to say anything about that. The United States government, under Liberal and neo-con leaders, has continued to erode the freedoms and liberties of the American people away. Furthermore, the corporations and businesses who have relocated abroad would not all have had to do so if the American union thugs had stayed out of the picture. My mother worked in a garment factory almost all her life until the factory, in Tunkhannock, PA, had to close up. My mother was a supervisor in that factory and, if I remember correctly, she even ran it for the owner. To this day, she blames the International Ladies Garment Workers union for why the factory was shut down. So many of you Americans want, want, want, want, want, want, and you do NOT want to GIVE.
I just wanted to add a couple of quick observations to this discussion:
1. God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence.
2. Our country was not founded on the Treaty of Tripoli. The treaty was merely a routine diplomatic agreement and needs to be seen in that context.
Thank you, Chris.
The term “abortion causing drugs” is inaccurate, hyperbolic and a distortion of fact. From a medical science perspective, a fertilized egg failing to implant is not an abortion, regardless of Hobby Lobby’s belief. Abortion-causing drugs (a/k/a abortifacients) such as RU-486 are not legal in the United States, and therefore may not be purchased through any insurance plan in the United States. The closest thing we have is the drug Levonorgestrel, which is a hormonal drug used in the “morning after pill” & contraceptive implants, and does not cause abortions. It simply does not allow a fertilized egg to implant — and plenty of fertilized eggs fail to implant naturally without Levonorgestrel. By conflating two very different processes by referring to them both under a blanket condemnation of “abortion,” Hobby Lobby’s CEO willfully distorts facts. Whether it’s a rationale to avoid paying for health insurance by inventing a means to claim “religious objection,” or whether it’s simply a stunt by to try to build public sentiment for the extremist goal of limiting access to contraception is anyone’s guess.
Which brings me to my second point: religious objection does not give any third party the right to interpose themselves in a transaction between a vendor and a consumer. Consumers have Constitutional rights as well. One person’s rights end where another’s begins, and by that token an employer does not have the right to tell an employee how and where to spend his or her wages — regardless of their First Amendment right to religious practice. Health insurance is considered a part of an employee’s wages, and therefore is no different. The choice as to what medical services to purchase is the consumer’s to make, and a consumer’s employer has no right to restrict a consumer’s possible behavior by limiting the choices available to that consumer. That’s a violation of the consumer’s rights, and the right to religious practice does not grant someone the right to violate the rights of others. In conclusion, it turns out the most recent court ruling on this very topic states virtually the same thing I have stated above:
http://www.aclu.org/files/assets/09.28.12_final_memo_and_order_on_dismissal.pdf
Ethan, you actually argued a point against yourself. In this case, Hobby Lobby is the consumer. They as a company are the customer of an insurance company where they accept bids, negotiate price and coverage and ultimately purchase a policy of their choosing that they offer to their employees as part of their compensation. Just as they can choose not to pay the additional expense of having vision coverage in the policy, as an example, they can choose not to pay to have coverage for abortifacients in the policy. This is no way limits their employee’s ability to go to their doctor/pharmacy and purchase a morning after or week after pill for themselves as they see fit. Hobby Lobby is in no way telling any employee how or where to spend his or her wages. The Obama administration has exempted thousands of companies from this mandate for reasons of convenience or cost and reasons unknown. What about their employees? What about the employees that work for small companies that aren’t provided any health insurance at all? If this was about strict adherence to the mandate to ensure that EVERY American was provided with the EXACT same healthcare coverage so that NO ONE is “discriminated” against, why don’t those things matter?
This is what it means to be a true Christian. Knowing that each of us are called to stand up for what is one of the foundation of our faith, all life is sacred. As a Catholic Christian I am proud to be right next to you in this fight. Know we are praying for you and all those that are struggling to uphold their faith with this mandate. We know how powerful our God is. May we be strengthen through Him and have the grace to follow this through and the strength to handle whatever challenges may come
Ironically, if liberal-supported universal care had been implemented than private employers would not be in the position of agreeing with or violating the will of the population (expressed through government). Conservative voices advocated for a system built around employers and the existing insurance industry and hence backed these entitities into a corner of implementing public solutions through private means. And the same advocates have been front and center in attacking the very elements of the solution which flowed from their choices.
That said–the government must back off and allow for conscience.
Healthcare and health insurance have nothing to do with the public. They are an individual concern. If you or I want healthcare or health insurance, we can get it ourselves. It is not the public’s responsibility to see that I have health insurance or healthcare. I take care of myself. I take care of my family. Burdening others in the way the Liberal agenda does is not ethical or moral.
If this were an islamic business, they would get an exception, so that they would not be offended. Everyone would defend their right to their faith. I CLAIM THE RIGHT TO MY CHRISTIAN FAITH. I think Hobby Lobby has every right to take this stance against forced government imposed violation of their beliefs. Any employee who is informed of the Hobby Lobby stance, who does not agree with it, can work elsewhere. SHAME ON OBAMA and his liberal cohorts.
[...] hours, TheBrennerBrief.com has averaged 22,191 visitors per hour because we have been promoting the Hobby Lobby CEO’s statement that he will act in defiance of the government attempting to dictate to it what health insurance it [...]
To wrap your argument in Christian language is not very appealing. Although I’m a minister of the gospel, my understanding of Jesus and scripture is that of socialism. Not the political socialism of today, but a socialism that takes care of all people. Your wealth has blinded you to this. The gospel is NOT about being a good business person, but it is about equality and everyone having enough. Enough health care for ALL people! I see ObamaCare as a step in the right direction. It will cost many of us more money, but lets live out the generosity of God and give and give and give until it hurts a little. Jesus lived his life like that. I want to live like Jesus. (By the way, the abortion issue isn’t an issue if you have served in the military and the war machine that kills God’s people around the world.)
May peace, harmony, and God’s love fill the entire world without exception!
Dayvid
You stated in one sentence, “Not the political socialism of today, but….” And then in the next sentence you say, ‘I see ObamaCare as a step in the right direction.” Aren’t you contradicting yourself?
With all of the discussion about why what Hobby Lobby is doing even matters, please take a look at our newest post: http://thebrennerbrief.com/2013/01/05/why-hobby-lobbys-defiance-matters-the-nazis-siriusxm-and-obama/. This will definitely help put the situation with HL in perspective.
Thank you again for reading The Brenner Brief. And if you haven’t already, please sign up for our newsletter at http://www.thebrennerbrief.com/newsletter so that you can keep in touch with us and the latest columns by our contributors.
UNBELIEVABLE that something like this would happen in our country. While Christians are to obey the laws of the land, there is Biblical principle for not obeying those laws if they contradict God’s Law. See Acts 5:27-29.Now, I’m going out in a few minutes to support Hobby Lobby by shopping at their excellent store today!
If the employees of Hobby Lobby don’t like the “benefits” that the company offers, they should seek employment elsewhere. This is what is wrong with a lot of people. They think their medical insurance coverage should pay for EVERYTHING. Health insurance was not designed to pay for emergency contraception, invetrofertilization, viagra, or facelifts. Health insurance was designed so that an individual does not suffer financial hardship due to a catestrophic event, such as a heart attack or cancer. Health insurance was designed to treat an illness or injury, not to pay for someone elses irresponsible behavior. People need to take responsibility for their own heathcare. If your insurance did not cover a physical exam every year, would you have one? Probably not. Although a yearly physical can detect a health problem before it gets out of control, most people would take their chances because they dont think that they should have to pay for it. It’s YOUR life. Just because you saw the little purple pill on TV doesnt mean that you need it. The decision to take a specific drug is between you and your doctor. If your doctor thought you needed the “little purple pill” don’t you think he would have written the prescription BEFORE you saw the commercial? Also, ask your doctor questions. If he/she wants you to have an MRI, ask why? Is it really necessary? Some doctors will benefit monetarily for these expensive tests, and patients will agree to them because “my insurance will cover it.” Use your benefit dollars as if they were your own. Do you go out and buy a product just because someone tells you to? NO. You will buy products that you want or need. Just because your health insurance will pay for something doesnt mean you need it.
Also, how would you like it if the government told you that you have to live in a yellow house with a white picket fence? If you detest yellow, you wouldnt. Is it fair for the government to tell you how to spend your money? NO. No more fair for it to tell companies how to spend theirs. WAKE UP PEOPLE! Obamacare has no business in our country. The Affordable Care Act is just another way for the government to take control. How would you like for the government to tell you that you have to give a percentage of your money to your next neighbor because he is too lazy to go to work? Obamacare is the same thing. Why do I have to pay for someone elses abortion pill because they are too irresponsbile to use a condom? Can’t afford condoms? DONT HAVE SEX. Take responsiblility for your own life. GET A JOB. Feed your own children, because I feed mine. And dont say that you cant find a job. There are jobs out there, although you probably dont want to do them because it requires physical labor. Get an education, but dont expect me to pay for it. I took out student loans and paid them back after I got a job. Why cant you do the same? ANYONE can support themselves if they want to (No, I am not referring to the disabled).
Ok, rant over.
tragic ..
So tired of seeing that people actually take the time to write LIES. If you are passionate enough about a subject to join in a thread to argue your opinion with strangers, you should be willing to do at least the minimum amount of research necessary so that you don’t look like a fool. Hobby Lobby’s insurance COVERS birth control. Period. They do not want to cover abortifacients. If you don’t know what those are, Google it.
Actually, here: Abortifacient – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AbortifacientAn abortifacient (Latin: that which will cause a miscarriage) is a substance that induces abortion.
I’m sorry that you are being subjected to this kind of communism, and that religous beliefs in this instance are ignored and are no longer by choice. Our government sucks, Obama sucks, and all those that voted this jerk in suck. All I can do is pray for you and hope you win in court. http://www.klaceyjsmithscastle.com/
Give to Caeser’s what is Caesar’s and give to God what is God’s. I support your lawsuit as freedom of expression but I do not support your position of not following the law. You are a for-profit business with enough employees to not be exempt from the health care law. However, you have other options than filing a lawsuit. Sell the business. Donate the business to a religious organization and turn it into what the St, Vincent de Paul stores are for the Catholic Church. However, if you retain this operation as a for-profit business, then you are wrong to be fighting a law that applies to all for-profit bussinesses the size of yours.
It is a new law and they are fighting for the right to be able to argue this law before the Supreme Court. They petitioned the court for a temporary stay; Justice Sotomayor threw out the petition. They are continue to fight through appropriate legal channels. At one time in our country we had laws that said “separate but equal” was fine. I am glad that people continued to fight these laws and we saw that overturned.
There are at least 750 businesses and corporations that are exempt from Obamacare. Why can’t Hobby Lobby be exempt? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2900475/posts
I am a Christian and I am very much pro life. However, I do not think any business, regardless of what faith the owners are, should be able to dictate what medicines they cover for their employees based on religious views. Personal freedoms are for the individuals, the workers, not just the CEOs. Your faith is personal. Therefore, you can not force your employees to live according to your beliefs just because they work for you. Its not your job to lord over them. It is your job to treat them well and fair. Where does it stop? What if a Catholic business owner didnt want to cover birth control, even for married employees? We wouldnt stand for that. Its not our employers jobs to lord over our personal health care decisions. The personal liberty at risk here is the workers. Hobby Lobby, you had liberty to start and maintain a great business and you chose to do so in a godly manner in the way you compensate and the time off you give employees. Maybe you should grant them some free will too.
They are not trying to dictate what medicines they cover.
They are not trying to force their beliefs on their employees; they don’t wan’t someone else’s beliefs forced on them.
Catholic business don’t provide birth control and it has been a huge news story for the last year of how they are fighting this mandate. I disagree with the Catholic belief on birth control and I most definitely stand with them in this fight against their religious freedom.
Hobby Lobby had the personal liberty to start their business. This is a new law and they also have the liberty to argue the constitutionality of this law (as many others are doing).
Their employees can use free will to pay for these drugs, quit Hobby Lobby or receive them from any number of clinics.
Cry me a river.
NO COMPANY IS FORCED TO PROVIDE AN EMPLOYEE ANYTHING BUT REMUNERATION FOR THE JOB THAT THEY PERFORM. NOTHING ELSE.
If an employee is not satisfied with a employer who provides no benefits, then their RIGHT is to find a company that does.
End of Story.
[...] http://thebrennerbrief.com/2013/01/03/tragic-letter-from-the-hobby-lobby-ceo-results-of-personal-fre… [...]
When your beliefs infringe on others, such as your employees, it causes a problem. It’s none of your business what your employees do in their personal lives. If you were to follow a religion where you were against unwed parents and therefore didn’t want to provide your employee with obstetric coverage until she was married, because you felt she shouldn’t be having a baby anyway, that would be wrong. You do not get to make those decisions. You provide medical insurance and the employee uses it as needed.
Those same employees have no problem accepting the benefits of this company like days off no nights and better pay. They are also FREE to seek other employment.
No one agrees not aborting a child should be penalized because of correcting the mistake of having unprotected (out of wedlock) sex by refusing prenatal care. Your phishing here.
I’m confused and would benefit from some clarification —
The objection raised here is not against a government mandate of healthcare per se but against being required to offer healthcare that as a part of its coverage, will cover contraception, ranging from regular birth control to so called “emergency contraception” like Plan B Correct?
The religious freedom issue being raised here is that the business owner believes that being required to pay for healthcare that would cover the purchase of said pills, which they as individuals have a moral objection against using, is an infringement on their personal religious liberty. Correct?
If so, my point of confusion is this —
Nothing about this mandate requires the business owners themselves to use contraception, which would clearly be a direct violation of their religiously based injunction against the use of these kinds of contraceptives. That objection would be clear as day to me.
So too, nothing about this mandate requires that that their employees must use contraceptives thus meaning there is no violation of their employees right to choose either, so no violation of personal liberties there either.
As there is no mandate TO USE contraceptives, which would result in a direct violation of religious freedom of individuals against USING these pills, what is the basis for arguing religious freedoms are being infringed?
As near as I can tell — the basis of the objection is that the business owner believes the infringement occurs by being legally obliged to use company funds to provide healthcare that, as part of its package would cover contraceptive use by any employee who might choose to use them (who may or may not share their employer’s spiritual beliefs re: contraception use). Does that seem an accurate representation?
I guess my point of confusion is the following —
I presume we’re all agreed that providing pay and access to healthcare are generally positive things. It is to Hobby Lobby’s credit that they pay well and value their employees and actually stand for something like Sundays off; I really admire that and
I see in this letter no objection to providing healthcare for empolyees, just an objection to the contraception part.
So what confuses me is this — there is no mandate that my employees USE birth control. It is a matter of their personal choice. For some birth control may be so they can have gratuitous amounts of sex with random strangers and for others it may be so they can enjoy sexual activity within a monogamous relationship, even a marriage, without having children, and for others it may be an effective treatment for serious hormonal imbalances. For still others birth control may be a religiously objectionable choice that they will have nothing to do with. That said — a woman who chooses birth control that is covered by a company health plan does not seem to me to be any infringement on my employer’s religious freedom. My employer can be a Christian through and through the day before I take it and the day after I take it. If they pay for my insurance when I don’t take it they don’t suddenly become a sinner if they pay for it when I do take it anymore than if they give me a paycheck for $500 dollars and I spend it on hookers, dope and a handgun that I then use to kill somebody.
If the argument is they don’t want to support what they view as immoral action on my part as an employee than sure the logic must apply also to pay checks and time off both of which represent resources mandated to be given to me by a company as an employee.
If I go on my break and use money I was given as payment by this company to buy pornography are they any LESS Christian because of it? Of course not. If go to my doctor and I choose to use contraception are they any less Christian because of it? Of course not.
They as individuals are not responsible for the personal moral choices of their employees and I do not see how this mandate to include contraception as part of a healthcare plan is any more of an infringement on their right to practice and observe the principles of Christianity than the mandate to pay in US dollars which can then be spent on whatever sinful and morally reprehensible activity a person may choose is an infringement on their right to practice and observe the principles of Christianity.
I would appreciate any well-reasoned and defensible counterpoints/counterexamples to this but this is my point of confusion re: how the mandate to provide healthcare which covers but does not REQUIRE the use of contraceptives is an infringement on the PERSONAL religious liberty of an individual who also owns a business.
Kind Regards
They are not objecting to birth control.
They are not objecting to the whole health care mandate – just the one issue.
If you buy porn on your break that is your choice. Hobby Lobby is not being asked to purchase porn for you.
Hobby Lobby is not seeking to deny anyone birth control.
The Supreme Court has determined, against the wishes of democrats, to determine that a corporation is a person therefore allowed the same constitutional rights as a person. If the 1st amendment gives persons the freedom to practice their religion without hindrance by any law, rule, statute, or mandate then a corporation has the right to claim constitutional protection from the hinderance of practice that religion as long as no one is put in a life threatening (ahem…growing life) situation or the the destruction of another’s property is at stake.
On a side note, just because they call it a “fetus” doesn’t mean it’s not a growing human life and just because they call it “abortion” doesn’t mean you’re not terminating that human life, a synonym for termination of human life by someone other than that human life now dead is “murder”. Changing the words doesn’t change the action associated with it.
It seems that the issue then is whether or not the government is directly mandating specific services to be required. I have worked for companies that provide eye coverage as part of their health benefit plans and others that do not. There is a pay trade off in either transaction. One I am free to choose. This mandate requires services the public is under the ludicrous impression will not have a economic trade off and more to your point a social trade off.
The second half is your belief that offering a service is different than using the service and as a Christian one must think of the blood guilt represented by their actions. First example is if I sell a car to someone who commits a holdup and uses the car as a get-away vehicle I, as the seller of the car, am not legally at fault. However if I willingly and knowingly drive the car to leave the scene of that crime I am an accessory. Paying an employee a fair wage is like selling a car to someone who uses that car in an illegal act. Offering to provide a service that aids the crime is driving the get-away car; you haven’t committed the crime but you can and probably will be legally responsible for aiding and abetting.
The second example is when the school system began to offer free no accountability confirms did sexual teen pregnancy rates increase or decrease? Will use of the two alternatives (pills) increase or decrease? Guess.
The pills are not only dangerous to the fertilized egg by the way, they also harm the woman taking them; read the side affects of increased estrogen, it’s not pleasant or insignificant. Also if she gets sick from taking it the insurance must cover her care and each claimmade increases the overall company/country fee for their health insurance benefits.
myblogforreason, This has absolutely nothing to do with costs or wage trade offs. Did you even bother to read the open letter from the CEO of Hobby Lobby? This is about the government ordering a company to provide insurance coverage for meds and procedures that are contradictory to the beliefs of this family owned business under the threat of a 1.3 million dollar per day penalty that will destroy this company of 500 stores and put their employees out of work and on unemployment.
Yes, darlin’ I did. That was my point though apparently presented unclearly. Even though the government can mandate healthcare as a whole, they have no ability to force specific mandates within that law. The constitution strictly forbids them from infringing on the rights of the few in order to appease the masses.
I was agreeing with you. Sorry for the misunderstanding. The first amendment is first because of its importance in protecting individuals against the collective. In fact mr. Obama stated he disliked the us constitution because it was a bunch of restrictions against the government which is why we need to fight against exactly these issues.
Friends?
Agreed, we definitely need to fight these issues. Anyone (especially our president) who doesn’t like our U.S. Constitution because it restricts our government needs to be watched closely as they are undoubtably communists.
The morning after pill isn’t abortion causing pill. It gives a high does of woman’s natural hormone estrogen to the egg to prevent it from being able to be fertilized it takes a sperm cell days to travel to the egg. Also the pill advises the longer you wait to take the pill the higher chances of it being ineffective since it does not affect an implanted egg. Id o presume that The Hobby Lobby family is ready and willing to adopt every unwanted child born to every one of there employees. This is Christian posturing nothing more. Do they think God will smite them for letting a woman have a pill? If the woman’s doctor declares the need for an actual abortion, will they fire her? Or do they declare the employee is on her own there too? Do they fire employees that engage in acts that will get them pregnant out of wedlock? If God will not smite them for the sins of their employees on these accounts, why this one? I believe abortions are the killing of unborn children and is wrong, I believe it is a sin to kill, I believe that sex out of marriage is a sin, I believe that some things that are legal are not moral and shouldn’t be done. But I also believe it is a personal choice and not one the government, not out employers should make for us. They are doing to their employees what they are upset about the government doing to them. Forcing ideas and beliefs! While ok for government, NOT OK FOR GOD. Following Him is a deep personal choice, not to be forced upon anyone. It is not being a Christian to force people to abide by your beliefs. They are posturing and making decisions on hype not education. I believe firmly they are going against God in this. Give Caesar what is Caesar’s and God what is His. The law is not forcing anyone to sin. But opposing it can disallow legal medical services, potentially beneficial, life affecting medication. Hobby Lobby isn’t standing up to accept the consequences of woman not getting this service. So worst case scenario for Hobby Lobby here is a woman has premarital sex and gets a pill after. Now you can not take these pills all the time. You can only have like 1 or 2. More than that poses risk to the woman. So this isn’t an alternative to birth control, it is abortion causing it is conception preventative medicine. The more likely scenarios for this is a woman is assaulted but doesn’t want to report the crime (which very common) but also doesn’t want to get pregnant from said assault, but her employer says that His beliefs deem she should. Who would every want to serve a God like that? No wonder many people view Christians in such a negative light, that is where they tend to stand.
Do not speak of freedom. You do not understand the concept at all. It is about being responsible NOT shirking responsibility.
You are WRONG about the morning after pill. If taken regularly increased estrogen prevents the egg from entering the Fallopian tube however in the case of the morning or week after pills the fertilized egg enters an unfriendly uterine habitat and cannot attach to the wall so is expelled when trying to attach or in the flush of its environment after attachment depending on timing. In other words it forces the woman to menstruate terminating the conceived egg.
How easily Christian’s are bought. It is funny how they haven’t opposed paying for actual abortions. This has all the markings of a ploy to drive up sales during hard economical times where people can not afford there high prices for frivolous items and hobby. And who can the sucker into this? Blind Christians that here anything that sound like it is religious and jumps on the band wagon without thought to where it is going. SMH. And before any of you want to attack me on my faith, just to let you know I try to live my life very closely to the Bible’s principles and to serve God everyday and teach and model such life for my children. I have been attacked for being to abiding in the laws by fellow Christians. I do not believe it is my place nor anyone elses to do what God will not; Force Himself on anyone. There are clear consequences for sinning. We have a duty to life the closest life we can to the example of Christ, but what is that famous saying from the Bible? “first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye” And I have found personally living by example works way better then condemning on principle.
Could someone explain the argument of how a company refusing to pay for something means they are depriving you of it or seeking to control your actions? They don’t pay for your car. Does that mean that they’re telling you that you can’t have one or trying to control how you drive the one you do have?
First: One more time, HL does not “pay for” birth control. It pays for insurance, as part of its employee compensation package. What it is asking for is the right to reach out and control how employees choose to use that particular kind of compensation, by telling insurers not to cover birth control. It is, again, none of HL’s business how its employees choose to use the compensation packages they are paid for their work for HL.
But anyway: Let’s say you’re a medical professional. Let’s say there’s a strong need for medical professionals in your field in Smallville, Idaho. Let’s say that Smallville, Idaho has only one hospital, which is run by a religious organization. Let’s say that you don’t care because, as a man, you don’t have to worry about birth control anyway. Now let’s compare your situation to a woman who’s a medical professional. She, for any number of reasons, does care about birth control (others have mentioned many good reasons). Arguably, right there, she’s getting less benefit from her compensation than you are. More to the point, that Smallville hospital is depriving itself of potential employees…and depriving the residents of Smallville of potential medical providers.
I wouldn’t say they’re “seeking to control your actions,” but they are imposing their religious beliefs upon their employees, because they’re telling the employees that they cannot avail themselves of birth control through their insurance coverage. Even though female employees are paying the same as male employees for that coverage. Even though they’re paying, in fact, the same as someone who works at another company, with the same healthcare package with the same provider, who DOES have access to birth control. And they are not refunding that value to their employees. (Note to people who haven’t had to pay for birth control: it is not cheap.)
At this point, I need to point out the arrogance of people who would say, well, just get another job then, or well, just pay for it out of your own pocket then. Our economy often does not offer such choices to people, and many jobs simply do not pay enough for employees to afford that out-of-pocket payment.
Are the owners of HL prepared to support their employees who have a child they did not want because of their policies? My guess is, no, they’re not. Yet it’s very easy to imagine an employee who (if HL and others win their court battles) had birth control coverage, then does not; and who cannot find another job, and cannot afford birth control, and who ends up pregnant. We can make her married, and we can even have her husband purchasing the least-expensive birth control (condoms)…but condoms fail more frequently. Is HL going to help support that child? No, they will not. Or perhaps this woman uses birth control not to prevent conception – perhaps she’s single and believes premarital sex is wrong – but to control her ovarian cysts. Without the birth control (and this is what happened to the Georgetown student described in the “double effect” article I described earlier in this thread), this woman may suffer damage to her ovaries such that she can never have a child. Can HL compensate her for that? No, it cannot.
Frankly, HL’s allegedly “religious” position is sheer arrogance. Its owners presume to know what a woman should do, what her needs are, what her medical situations may be, and it callously disregards any situations that are different from those presumptions…all for the thin gruel of feeling morally superior, of feeling righteous, in its narrow interpretation of Christianity. There are no biblical prohibitions against birth control – but there are certainly plenty of biblical admonishments against arrogance, against selfishness, against self-righteousness, against those who would puff up their belief at the expense of others’ well-being.
I call HL’s owners poor Christians. They are not thinking of others in a Christ-like way; they are arrogantly strutting around and flaunting their tendentious interpretation of an obscure religious tenet while ignoring mercy, charity, and fellow-feeling.
The issue is completely getting of base by some of these side comments and everyone’s personal beliefs that may or may not contradict with this business owners point of view. The CEO should have a right to exercise a business based on his beliefs and you have a choice not to shop or work there as long as he is not violating employee legal rights. The issue around the insurance is his tactical concern because due to this requirement it is now a legal issue for him around an elective event that would not normally be covered anyway. If you want to make a choice to proceed – then it is an elective you should pay for not pass on to the employer and employees to cover the additional costs because you did not take necessary precautions or your birth control small statistical chance to not work happened – something we were all communicated about in advance. Mandated health care will never be free. We will all pay for it and just like taxes with a government who overspends you will pay for it more and more with each administration. You may support the government on healthcare including this aspect if you want but this is a first step. The next time when the govt mandates something that you don’t agree with but you have no choice and it compromises your life choice you will understand. So that’s why it is tyranny. The taxpayers were not consulted and in fact the people who put it together confuse and misrepresent facts to the public make it impossible to decipher the mechanics of the expectations. And eventually all of our rights will be taken away and we will be drones like former Russia who could not even speak out against the govt for fear of retribution. So it really shouldn’t matter what side you are on. We all need to see the more strategic issue. If you do additional research you will note that initially they also wanted to mandate a “chip” that everyone needed implanted “for the good of keeping your medical care accessible to all hospitals…for your own good” in this health care reform bill. They took it out last minute because there was already too much controversy and they didn’t want to to take a chance it wouldn’t pass. Yet, medical oncology research shows the increased risk of cancer and the govt FDA group still approved it. The companies involved in the white house pushing the chip as it will make them profitable has admitted they cannot guarantee your information could be secure. Folks this is all pointing to a tyranny. So whether your a Christian or not, whether your pro-choice or pro-life whether your gay or heterosexual – It is essential to realize that this government is overcoming us by stirring up conflicts intentionally and keeping us divided to move forward their own agenda in their best interest. Remember your history…”United we stand but divided we fall.” Patrick Henry. Let’s quit falling down trying to get our own way on each and every item and look how we can prevent playing into the hands of removing all of our rights and stripping away life as we experience today.
I am reluctantly logging in to be able to comment on this only because I have no patience for people who claim to be upholding their beliefs when their “view” has no basis in fact. The morning after pill has absolutely NOTHING to do with abortion except that it may prevent someone from feeling that is an option for them. Conception does not necessarily happen immediately. That particular pill PREVENTS an egg from being fertilized. AND even if it did prevent a fertilized egg from proceeding – there is NO heartbeat involved in that, and if there is no heartbeat, that is not yet a life. Your view is ridiculous and makes other Christians who have common sense and the intelligence to actually KNOW what the facts are look as ridiculous as you.
I, too, am reluctantly logging to be able to comment on your reply. Because you have stated, “I have no patience for people who claim to be upholding their beliefs when their ‘view’ has no basis in fact” I ask you to use this same standard on the view you state in your comment. Consider the following, regarding the “Morning After” pill known as Plan B contraceptive:
Dr. Donna Harrison, an OB-GYN, stated in an interview with OneNewsNow.com, “In a woman who is already pregnant, [Plan B] will cause an abortion, just like RU-486 does, because it’s the same kind of drug.”
This is because the main ingredient of Plan B is the steroid levonorgestrel. It comes from the same chemical family as the main ingredient in RU-486, the original “morning after” pill, which is termed a “medication abortion” by everyone from Planned Parenthood, the #1 provider and promoter of abortion, to neutral medical literature. In fact, levonorgestrel and RU-486′s main ingredient, mifepristone, share very similar molecular structures. The formula for Plan B is Carbon21Hydrogen28Oxygen2 while the formula for RU-486 is Carbon29Hydrogen35NitrogenOxygen2.
While the Plan B website promises that “Plan B is not the abortion pill” and “Plan B will not terminate an existing pregnancy”, these statements are reassuringly misleading and untrue. If one reads further, the literature states, “In addition, it may inhibit implantation (by altering the endometrium).” This, in reality, means that Plan B can prevent a fertilized egg (i.e. conception) from attaching to a woman’s womb by causing the lining to thin. Plan B is thus denying the fertilized egg to ability to obtain the nutrients it needs to survive, which fits any definition of abortion (i.e. causing a fertilized embryo or fetus to die). So while it may prevent contraception for some, to those who have already conceived when taking Plan B, they are receiving an aborticide in disguise. THIS is what Hobby Lobby CEO David Green and family are against. And I, along with many others including those who have commented in the affirmative belong, agree with the Greens.
Very nicely said, “w8n4″. Also, I have heard that regular Birth Control Pills ALSO have the ability to “cause a hostile environment” for a fertilized egg, so I will never use them.
Where do you get that there has to be a heartbeat for there to be life? Bacteria was found on another planet and it was called life. A diving cell is alive like it or not.
This is a VERY good point. Science would be ecstatic if it found even one tiny microbe on Mars. And the headlines would read “LIFE FOUND ON MARS!”
That’s right kwsstin…bacteria is said to be alive…a cell IS life…and to think the zygote (fertilized egg by the sperm) as a dividing cell (can divide up to 32 times). If it weren’t for CELLS, there would not be a heart, therefore no heartbeat! When those 23 chromosomes of the mother meet the 23 chromosomes of the father…boom, a baby is made! And just so you know LANicholson…the Plan B pill or morning after pill CAN interfere with a pregnancy (I speak of pregnancy being an egg that was fertilized). It can do both…it can PREVENT pregnancy, but it can also CAUSE the killing of the zygote (fertilized egg) (it’s a hormone, a steroid that is in the Plan B)…you need to do more research before you go saying stuff like “when their “view” has no basis in fact”. And BTW…just so ya know…by the 4th week of pregnancy (before a woman knows she is even pregnant) the cells have already gathered themselves into their respective groups to form the nervous, muscular, circulatory, digestive, and skeletal systems. (My most recent research paper was on the miracle of life:). Heart begins to beat at 5 WEEKS, but this is not when the baby’s life begins…the baby’s life begins at the moment the sperm fertilizes the egg. Of course there are different beliefs out there and so be it but PLEASE people, before you start blabbing nonsense and telling other people “how it is” when you apparently are the clueless one…stop while you are ahead as to avoid making yourself look like an idiot.
When you say someone’s beliefs, i.e. faith, has no basis in fact, I see that as something a non-believer would say. Because faith, by definition, is the belief in something in the absence of proof.That aside, Our constitution guarantees us to practice our faith any way we choose, without government interference, so long as we do so in a responsible manner and not infringe in the same rights of others. The government has NO right to force any person or business to do ANYTHING that conflicts with our rights to FREEDOM OF RELIGION.
Joinca said: “When you say someone’s beliefs, i.e. faith, has no basis in fact, I see that as something a non-believer would say. Because faith, by definition, is the belief in something in the absence of proof.That aside, Our constitution guarantees us to practice our faith any way we choose, without government interference, so long as we do so in a responsible manner and not infringe in the same rights of others. The government has NO right to force any person or business to do ANYTHING that conflicts with our rights to FREEDOM OF RELIGION.”
The key words above are “…and not infringe in the same rights of others.” Hobby Lobby is not a religious organization, meaning that employees are not required or expected to be christian or to have to follow that particular religion to work there. If they want to become a non-profit religious organization, then they can do so, but I don’t see that happening. Sure, the owners can refrain from using the day after pill, and follow all the “christian principles that they desire, but when they try to infringe on the rights of their employees who may not share their non work-related principles, by denying them the ability to choose what is best for them, then they are overstepping their bounds.
Razz, Hobby Lobby is not infringing on the rights of their employees by refusing to pay for abortions. If one of their employees wanted to take the ‘morning after, or week after pill, or even have an early term abortion, that employee would not be fired or otherwise punished because it was her decision and she’ll answer to God for her actions. The company just wouldn’t have paid for it in the past and should not be FORCED to pay for it now. That is the point being made here. The Government is imposing it’s belief system upon us and thus infringing on our right to live our lives guided by our beliefs, our faith, and our own conscience. This is the real issue here, and not whether someone believes life exists at the point of conception or when there’s a heartbeat. It’s about the federal government telling us how we MUST live our lives, and if we do not comply, they will fine or penalize you into oblivion.
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn’t a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out. – Martin Niemoller
Rasmatazz, No one is saying that Hobby Lobby employees can’t make thier own choices. If they choose to do something that breaks God’s laws, then it’s their own souls that pay the price, not the owners. Still, that aside, the owners are just saying that they will not pay for anyone to do that. In other words, they will not condone that action because it is against their own beliefs. I admire them for doing that. If their employees want abortions, then they can pay for it, themselves. You should be ashamed of yourself for thinking that it is ok for our government to interfere and dictate. True Americans know that the government is suppose to work for us, and that they have no right to interfere. Why would you want them to dictate? Why on earth, would anyone want them to have any power over the american people. Why would any American go along with dictatorship…Why!
I could not agree more, tnwltn. Finally, someone who really gets what is going here!
Amen! The government has no right!
Are you really that uninformed? You had better study your biology again, to know how that morning-after or week-after pill really works. And whether you believe life begins at conception or not isn’t the issue. Forcing an employer to fund ‘medical procedures’ against their beliefs is just plain wrong. History has taught us that religious freedoms are the first to go. (Stalin, Hitler, Mao)
What about employers forcing their religious beliefs on employees? Everyone’s benefits should be equal whether they are male or female, Christian or otherwise.
@digarcia5, HL is NOT forcing their beliefs on anyone. It is a company’s right to provide or not provide whatever benefits it so chooses, regardless of the reason. The gov’t. is forcing HL to provide a benefit they don’t want to pay for. The reason just happens to be based on they’re religious beliefs. So be it. No one is forcing anyone to work for that company. And why should HL have to pay for the promiscuous behavior of it’s female employees if they choose not to.
@digarcia5. Their not forcing their belief on any one, they’re just not funding any ones else’s beliefs.
No one said they were forcing their beliefs on anyone. They give those who wish to have the to attend church on Sunday’s the opportunity to do so. Not offering the Plan B or morning after pill is not imposing your beliefs on someone…there are PLENTY of companies out there who do NOT provide specific insurance…some companies don’t provide dental insurance or very limited post-natal care…I could go on…
dlgarcia5 “What about employers forcing their religious beliefs on employees? Everyone’s benefits should be equal whether they are male or female, Christian or otherwise.”
They are not forcing their beliefs on their employees. They are simply saying that they will not condone abortion by paying for it. The employees can still do what they choose to do, but at their own expense. Furthermore, they are not willing to allow our government to dictate to them how they should run their own business. Just as it was meant to be, but for some reason, many people have forgotten the principles in which this country was based on.
I also reluctantly registered just to comment on this because it drives me insane. To comment on the article itself, I agree with Hobby Lobby and will almost always prefer the power of choice to be out of the hands of the government. But as for the morning-after pill, LANicholson is absolutely correct. The pill only prevents implantation.. I wish I could underline that… IMPLANTATION. There is no life form at all, of course no heartbeat etc. So the asinine logic about bacteria is far beyond moot… following that logic every woman is already pregnant.
How many problems in our society result from bad parenting? Oh yea, basically all of them. As a society why do we want to restrict prevention? It’s insane, we don’t need more unwanted kids we should be begging kids to get condoms and bc pills. Unwanted sounds harsh, but get over it because it’s true, it’s a real problem, and we need to address it as one. Your problems with abortions and birth control don’t seem to be that you care about kids, it’s more that you want to control people having sex. Pot, meet kettle. Not everyone shares your beliefs, I don’t want them forced on me either.
LANicholson, w8n4jesus is ABSOLUTELY correct. The morning after pill does NOT stop fertilization, it stops implantation. Different things. And if it stops a fertilized egg from implanting, that in essence is ABORTION. What I find fascinating is that so many people here want to crucify Hobby Lobby for standing up for their beliefs and yet you would have a cow if any one of us condemned your beliefs. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord right along with the Green family.
The best part about being an American is freedom. Religious beliefs is included in our freedom. Entrepreneurs choose what kind of business they are going to invest their time and money in and how they will build it.. Employees choose where they apply for work. A person’s belief system is a part of them and will influence how we conduct our daily business or where we want to work. I am not ok with the government telling the business owner he has to offer something to his employees that he himself does not believe in. This is about religious freedom and about the principles these people hold and which they founded their business on. They are not depriving their employees of anything that cannot be had at Planned Parenthood. Did you read the part about how they have been able to give raises over the last 4 years and employees make 80% over minimum. I did the math, 13.00 an hour, for retail and then this awful CEO wants you to spend time with your family so they are closed on sundays. Do you know any Walmart employees? Try to get 13.00 an hr anywhere in retail with sundays off.
Taz, That was very well said. I applaud your courage for speaking out and making yourself a target for the misinformed and those who believe that whatever the government dictates, even if it violates our Constitutional rights, should be blindly followed.
Thank you
Yes, very well said Tazman!
So Many people are quick to comment before they even really know what they are commenting on! People pay about half attention & then post! How many people have commented on birth control when that is not even an issue?! It is the morning after pill! Reed all the details before you speak people! By the way, I support Hobby Lobby on their rights to pay for what they choose & do not think they should have to pay for something against their beliefs. If an employee wants to seek such medical treatment they should have to pay themselves. Insurance is not made to pay all of a persons medical costs & often does not cover what the doctor recommends & therefore the pt. owes the difference. Not all insurance is created equal, some pay better than others & some pay for one procedure while another may pay for a different one. it all depends on the type of plan you have & each employer has the right to provide the plan that they choose & the employee can accept that, get insurance on their own or find employment elsewhere. People in this country expect everything to be given to them. It doesn’t work that way, You have to take some responsibility yourself for your own healthcare!
” By the way, I support Hobby Lobby on their rights to pay for what they choose & do not think they should have to pay for something against their beliefs. If an employee wants to seek such medical treatment they should have to pay themselves.”
Would you also support a company owned by Jehovah’s Witnesses that refuse to pay for blood transfusions, even in emergency situations, because it goes against their beliefs? Would you also support a company owned by devout Christians who believe in faith-based intervention for medical issues instead of any medical care at all? Or how about someone that is adamant about the dangers of smoking and its health effects? Or diabetes and heart disease since these are mainly caused by obesity and the owner believes that obesity is a personal failing rather than a medical issue? Or treatment for alcoholism and drug addiction?
If we allow HL to decide what their employees may use in their health insurance coverage, where does it stop? By rights, we should allow ANY business owner to pick and choose ANY conditions that he/she will allow his/her employees to be treated for. Would you or anyone else here in support of HL also support those instances? I think not, especially if the situation involves you or a member of your family.
You seem to forget the basic principle of businesses…….they provide a service and have their own beliefs which is find. If YOU don’t agree with them then YOU don’t have to shop their or work for them!!! It is person’s choice to shop at or work at a business!! The business doesn’t have to cater to YOU and if you don’t like their product or beliefs then leave them the hell alone! Thank you and that is all….
You didn’t answer the question. Would you also support the right of another business owner to deny employees coverage for specific health conditions based upon the owner’s belief that doing so would be morally wrong? Years ago, a Repub senator was morally opposed to embryonic stem cell research UNTIL his daughter was diagnosed with diabetes and he learned that such research might provide a cure. I think it was Strom Thurmond but am not sure.
@sjl4evr. Yes – companies have the right to offer whatever benefits they choose. Remember: these are BENEFITS, not rights. If an employee or patron disagrees with the way a company runs their business or the benefits they offer their employees – then don’t work there or shop there!!!!! Last I checked we do still have choices in America. Maybe not for long, but for now, we do.
I wouldn’t expect any employer to pay extra for birth control any more than I would expect food stamps to pay for a bar tab. There’s a big difference between getting laid and saving lives.
What I don’t understand is there should be a discount for using BC, its a lot cheaper than giving birth. It should be like the discount you get for having a car alarm.
Yes, I would support that company’s rights as well. Hobby Lobby isn’t denying anyone access to anything-they just don’t want to pay for it. The media has used the phrase, “denying access” to mean that someone doesn’t wish to subsidize your lifestyle. This is misleading, as I am sure it is intended to be. Just look at silly coed Sandra Fluke-who had absolutely NO IDEA how much birth control pills even cost!-No one is trying to “deny her access” to a $9 pack of pills (which she could buy with the remainder of her subsidized student loans, no doubt!),they just don’t want to pay for them. That is the biggest problem in this country right now- no one wants to be responsible for their own needs.
@sji4ever, First of all, HL is not forbidding it’s employees from taking these pills or even having surgical abortions. They are are opposed to these but are not imposing their beliefs on their workers. They are only refusing to be part of these actions by being forced by the government to pay for the insurance coverage of these because to do so goes against they religious beliefs. And yes, I would support any company that did the same thing for any of the treatments you mentioned, not because I believe the way they do, but I do believe they have they right to choice what employee benefits they do pay for. The government has no right to dictate what any company must pay for in the way of employee benefits, and no employee is forced to work for a company that does not provide the benefits they seek. Either find a company that provides what you want or do without those benefits, period..
Yes! Get a new job shop elsewhere turn the channel walk away! Capitalism would cause their business to suffer at least and fold at best. Vote with your dollars. Increase hobby lobby sales so they can fight and the government fears the people’s opinions as they should. It keeps them from overpowering the public. If we don’t stand for our rights we will fall to theirs’.
It is not a right to kill a human with forethought and intent. It doesn’t matter if the baby is a day old or 100 years old, mentally ill or “normal”, physically challenged or athlete, cancer victim or newly conceived.
Hobby Lobby stand firm. Remember that Daniel followed his religious beliefs over rules form the Gov’t. You have my prayers and I support your stores. May God Bless You.
May God richly bless you for your beleifs and values. I thank God for people who stand on the word of God.Prayers are with you all.
I will continue to support Hobby Lobby. I believe as they do and no liberal nonsense to the contrary will sway me.
I too support Hobby Lobby! My thoughts and prayers are with you as well! Stand Firm in your faith always! God Bless you and may he see you through this….successfully!
Hobby Lobby is 100% correct. Our government “one nation under God” is taking away more & more of our freedom every day. Another problem with Obamacare that is unknown my most people is that no insurance company is allowed to cover transplants for people over 65 years old. This affects me because a rare (1 in 600,000) autoimmune disease that is destroying my liver. I will be about 67 by the time I need a transplant (58 now). Before Obamacare I was told that I would receive a transplant when needed and that cures the autoimmune disease in 80% of cases, and the other 20% live an additional 10 years. Now that Obamacare is in effect, I have no medical option because I will be 65+ and that means NO transplant unless I can pay 100% for the procedure out of my own pocket. I am not rich, so that’s not possible. Thankfully my trust is in God and He knows the number of my days. Left to our government rules & regulations I’d have no hope. Many Americans who think all the laws being passed by the Obama/democrat-liberals are just fine will have a very rude awakening when they find their own liberties are taken away. ACT NOW AMERICA to remain a free country and remain “one nation under God”. When we remove God from our daily lives, we remove His ability to bless us as a nation, so don’t blame God when there are droughts, floods, wildfires etc because God can’t bless a country that Refuses to let Him direct their paths.
Well said Debra. My prayers are with you that God will keep you all the days of your life and beyond. You’ll be around as long as He sees fit. Then you will be called home. Remember, as C.S. Lewis said, “I don’t have a soul. I am a soul. I have a body.”
My thoughts and prayers are with you Debra! And you are right…”Many Americans who think all the laws being passed by the Obama/democrat-liberals are just fine will have a very rude awakening when they find their own liberties are taken away.” Then, those hypocrites will be singing to a different tune, won’t they!
perhaps a helpfull avenue would also be starting a petition. there are several free sites that host them and along with your facebook and employee following might help.
ridiculous and based on–and spreading–misinformation. if the hobby lobby is indeed your “family,” then surely you can talk to them as you would family, let them know what your values are etc–presumably they continue to work there because they share them, and you seem to wear them on your sleeve–and urge them that if they find themselves “in a situation” to seek appropriate counseling in order to make (what you consider to be) the right decision. Just because birth control and contraception are included in the mandate doesn’t mean people have to use them. I do not support the war in afghanistan and was violently opposed to the war in iraq, but i still pay my taxes; i absolutely despise fox news, but i support and defend the first amendment. So do the right thing, buy into the plan, give your employees insurance, and trust the individual–your family members–to make choices that are consistent with your values. Or go ahead and pretend that your fundamentalist christian values are the only ones that matter, insist that they be imposted on everyone, refuse to buy into the mandate, go out of business, and put all your family out of work. But remember, if i purchase Plan B at the drug store, (a) it’s none of your damn business, (b) you’re not really paying for it–at all, and (c) don’t punish your employees for what i do.
@Felonius, that would not be doing what God has called us to do. We do not have any part in killing a child of Gods. No matter what you call it, they are being forced to be a part of it.
God bless you and your family Mr. Green. Keep upholding your faith, and we will keep shopping at Hobby Lobby as long as your doors are open, which will prayerfully be for a very long time. We back you 100% and will pray for victory for you in the courts. Debra Silviano
To the CEO of Hobby Lobby and every other CEO consider this!
I predicate my comments on the following. I’m a Christian and believer I turn to the Bible for my answers. Further I respect “practicing Christian.” I’m not intending to pass judgment on the veracity of Hobby Lobby’s CEO letter because I don’t know him. But I do invite him to review the patterns and practices of dishonest business behavior in America. I further suggest he do more to clean up the business environment in a way that benefits the home front. Now with that stated I beseech you not to make the health care issue or lack of a single issue. I ask you do some soul searching on the following points.
There are, “how many uninsured people in America who can’t afford the exorbitant cost of quality health insurance?” insurance which will not put them into bankruptcy or will not screw them out paid coverage, house and spouse. Consider the root of this which is lack of interest in the welfare of others or the welfare of society as a whole. It reflects an increasing trend in unethical business behavior in the pursuit of the almighty dollar.
I think you as reasonable people do recognize there is a serious and increasing despair between the have and have not in this Country. The middle class is disappearing mainly as a result of greed, selfishness, and unethical business practices in the quest of money. Succinctly put our leaders Business and Government have turn away from God. I hope you at least recognize the fact that the trend in concentrating wealth into the hands of the 1% continues with no regard to the needs of the 99%. Now I ask you where is the honor and justice in that!
I spent 20 years as a Committeeman on the Republican Executive Committee at the “County level,” and I stood by and watched the party be hijacked by the above referenced interest. As a result I’ll have to spend the rest of my life asking God’s forgiveness for not doing more to prevent this from happening. It makes me sick and want to vomit when I hear participants at a Republican functions chanting “let them die, let them die,” when it comes to discussing health care issues. Is this what Christ wants? Is this what God wants?
What have we as a society come to when we neglect the needs of our own people and the needs of our economy in the pursuit of the dollar. Dollars which ends up in the hands of the 1% and please spare me the song and dance about creating jobs. CEO’s are being disingenuous with that statement when you send jobs outside America. “Whoops I stand corrected,” I guess you create jobs in Countries that pay at slave labor rates.
Further when our CEO’s “yes you heard right CEO’s,” make outrageous statement such as “when you, ‘meaning the workers’ are willing to work and be paid what the Chinese are then I’ll bring jobs back to America. “ Lord give me a break,” what is this CEO actually saying. He’s saying you’re not worthy, you are not worthy of your hire,” you are worthless, you owe it to us your,”god and master,” to work as our slaves. You should be happy the make us richer, you should be happy just to have a job, oh you lowly pariah of the great unwashed masses.”
What have our CEO’s come to in when our economy is in shambles because of corruption, greed and the other remaining deadly sins? I ask you to remember an old case involving the alleged murder of “Karen Silkwood,” by the big bad – powerful energy industry. Further what about all the patent suppressions occurring for example “zero based energy development,” and car engines that run on water. Where is the honor in such behavior? Allowing the development of such patents would end a lot of the worlds suffering.
I want to conclude with a prayer. “Oh Lord save the good hard working people and those who want to work and justify their existence and make this Country a better place for themselves and their children. I pray this in the name of your son Jesus Christ.
@Laurice, the bottom line is, if Obamacare forces businesses to pay for abortions, then everyone that claims to be a Christian needs to stand up and be counted, and not accept this without a fight. Anyhthing that goes against Gods law needs to be addressed.
[...] David Green, CEO of Hobby Lobby, penned a letter that poignantly lays out the [...]
Guys I’m very upset by this story though my heart leaps for joy at your faithfulness in all the father has blessed you with! God word says that we must abide by the law of the land and pray for our leaders in the decisions that they make…… Having said that his word also states that we are his children and we answer to him…. The father knows your hearts he sees beyond what we see and he is just…. God does not open doors that man can close he owns it all he spoke and it was he planted the seed in your heart for this and he himself feed and watered it and see how it has grown look at the lives that has been blessed because as faithful servants you followed we’re he lead he says in his word the gates of hell will not prevail against it no weapon formed against will prosper having done all to stand withstand in faith remember the battle is his in psalm37 god says take his rest he says ask and it shall be given onto you take heart god is in this battle it’s his trust!!! Lord today we ask you to take control of this situation you see this family and there hearts to serve you you see the lives affected by there faithfulness to you lord right we THANKYOU for your hand upon all affected and we THANKYOU for victory in this battle to your glory we THANKYOU for the lives that will be spoke to and changed through this whole situation we THANKYOU that your faithful and just we give all the glory to you and we look forward with thankful heats to hearing how you have moved and touched changed and blessed all involved for your glory amen
@tkturk101, So thankful to see a fellow Christian defending HL stance, but was a little confused on your phrase. “God word says that we must abide by the law of the land and pray for our leaders in the decisions that they make…… ” Please provide scripture so that I might show myself approved, because the only thing I could find was Peter and the other Apostles saying we must obey God rather than man. Agreeing with you that we need to pray for our leaders, but thinking we are called to stand for what is righteous, even if it goes against mans law. I believe all of us will be judged by God on our actions and inaction. your sis in Christ
wheresthemega, the scripture you’re searching for it Romans 13:1-7. It states that you are to obey the government.
The next question is “Is there a time when we should intentionally disobey the laws of the land?” The answer is found in Acts 5:27-29, “Having brought the apostles, they made them appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. ‘We gave you strict orders not to teach in this Name,’ he said. ‘Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.’ Peter and the other apostles replied: ‘We must obey God rather than men!’“ It is clear that as long as the law of the land does not contradict the law of God, we, as Christians, are bound to obey the law of the land. As soon as the law of the land contradicts God’s command, we are to disobey the law of the land and obey God’s law. However, even in that instance, we are to accept the government’s authority over us. This is demonstrated by the fact that Peter and John did not protest being flogged, but instead rejoiced that they suffered for obeying God. This is found in Acts 5:40-42.
I hope this helps you. God bless!
Yes, this does help, thank you kksign. Since the 3rd verse lets you know he is talking about God laws and not mans I thought maybe tkturk101 had another verse. Just concerned that tkturk101 didn’t know, that just because a man changes Gods laws does not mean we have to follow them, that we are to stand up against evil even if that means going to jail or being flogged. Thanks again. God bless you and yours as well.
I would like to know some examples of companies exempted from the mandate and why they were exempted .
[...] received this email at The Brenner Brief through our contact form in regards to the Hobby Lobby letter from the CEO that we posted on our site [...]
We need insurance companies created for such christian companies that offer a comprehensive insurance plan that would provide an A option and a B option to be compliant with the current OBAMA care guidelines. Insurance companies can cover certain drugs in their coverages. Why can’t the Green’s help to create with Pre Paid Legal or Legal Shield coverages that would comply with government but allow for altered prescribed medications?
It is not to fight this issue but work around the issue for a solution that Jesus would appreciate.
I have never shopped at Hobby Lobby unless my wife holds a gun to my head. HOWEVER, I will never miss an opportunity to give you my business from now on. I applaud your courage to take a stand. 30 years in uniform and nine tours of combat convinced me that evil exists and it cant be defeated merely by good intentions and pseudo-intellectualism. We must stand up and be willing to fight for principle and for those that cant protect themselves. I salute you and will pray for you, in all things GOD in in control.
When did the constitution grant government the right to tell private employers what type of insurance they must provide the employees? Or tell insurance companies what type of policies they must sell? What are we doing when government controls the details of how a business is run? If an employer doesn’t compensate you, or treat you (provide the benefits) the way you want, and why would you work there? If you don’t agree with the way a business operates why would you shop there? These are the principles of free enterprise and capitalism supported by a Democratic Republic system; why not let them work the way the are suppose to without government interference/control? What advantage is there to putting a major provider of employment out of business just to prove a point about the fine details in an insurance program?
This is the 64 million dollar question. The answer is: Liberals do not care what the Constitution says or grants or does not say or does not grant. They have openly declared that the Constitution is outmoded and outdated.
@ttjrogers, Please don’t try to lay the blame on Liberals because both Liberals and Conservatives, Democrats and Republicans have been systematically stealing away our constitutional freedoms for the past several decades. The problem is that our gov’t. is out of control and no longer serves the people, but rather is forcing the people to serve it. We have become a country of blind sheep following any goat with a bell around it’s neck. We need to wake up and take our country back from the bureaucrats who seek to make us subservient to their whims.
“The problem is that our gov’t. is out of control and no longer serves the people, but rather is forcing the people to serve it. We have become a country of blind sheep following any goat with a bell around it’s neck. We need to wake up and take our country back from the bureaucrats who seek to make us subservient to their whims.” Agree 100%
This deserves repeating….”“The problem is that our gov’t. is out of control and no longer serves the people, but rather is forcing the people to serve it. We have become a country of blind sheep following any goat with a bell around it’s neck. We need to wake up and take our country back from the bureaucrats who seek to make us subservient to their whims.” Agree 100%. Thanks for posting it joeinca.
Having sex gets you pregnant, if you dont want to get pregnant DONT have sex THAT simple. A company should never have to pay for someones choice to have or not have sex. There are LOTS of people that cant afford health insurance, that is mostly because of life choices. Its not a companies fault that someone cant afford something. Not everyone deserves it either. If somone really want insurance they will find a way to be responsible and afford it. The gov. trying to make sure everybody has insurance and is taken care of is what is driving up the cost of insurance and sending this country into more and more debt.
Who are you to decide for everyone what to choose. If you do not want anyone to use it then hire accordingly. Just because the option is there does not mean it has to be taken. That should be a choice to the employee not just the boss!!. And just for the record I would not take that pill but that is my choice! and should always be my choice!!
Julie, the only entity trying to decide for everyone is the government and it’s not offering a choice. It’s telling HL to comply or be fined out of existence. The employees of HL can choose any pill or procedure they wish. All HL is saying is they will not pay extra insurance to cover the cost of any pill or procedure that results in the end of an unborn child’s life, which is their right.
Your choice…yes…and at your own expense. Just as it should be!
If Hobby Lobby is a company that doesn’t discriminate as to who they employ, that company must also be willing to respect their beliefs and values as well. The owner(s) and manager(s) don’t necessarily have to agree with certain values and beliefs of individual employees, but denying them the certain rights dictated by the government simply because the boss doesn’t “believe in it” is wrong.
@heretic, You say it’s wrong for a company to deny their employees the right to take these pills or have an abortion because the gov’t. dictates it. First, HL is not denying these actions by it’s employees, rather they are refusing to pay for them. Second, where is your outrage at the gov’t. for dictating how a company conducts it’s business and what it pays for in the way of benefits for it’s emplyees?
Heretic…they don’t have to agree…but they also do not have to provide ALL types of insurance coverage. I say again, some companies do not provide dental, or STD, LTD coverage…that is the privately owned companies choice and SHOULD REMAIN THAT WAY! If you don’t like the insurance coverage provided by the company…work elsewhere…PERIOD! And you hit the nail on the head, the government shouldn’t DICTATE (what are we communists?) what companies provide what insurance.
Heretic says:
“If Hobby Lobby is a company that doesn’t discriminate as to who they employ, that company must also be willing to respect their beliefs and values as well. The owner(s) and manager(s) don’t necessarily have to agree with certain values and beliefs of individual employees, but denying them the certain rights dictated by the government simply because the boss doesn’t “believe in it” is wrong.”
First of all, the owners are not denying their employees anything except that they will not pay for their employees to get abortions. If their employees choose to do that, then they must pay for it themselves. The owners are not saying that their employees have to believe as they do, they are just saying that they will not believe that abortion is okay and they will not condone or contribute to it. Their Belief…Their Right…and…Their Business! Again, the “government” has NO RIGHT TO DICTATE! Why would you or anyone agree or condone the government even trying to dictate? You and everyone else here should be more outraged by that, and should be speaking out about that, instead of bashing the owners of Hobby Lobby for a belief that could, very well, save their souls.
I applaud you for sticking to your beliefs. For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father’s family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to royal position for such a time as this?” Esther 4:14 I believe you are here for just such a time as this and for all Christian businesses, large and small, trying to run their business in Christian principles.
You have a right to “Due Process of the Law” according to the Constitution of the United States. Look into it!!
Really!!! Guantanamo!!! White House wins fight to keep drone killings of Americans secret. https://rt.com/usa/news/drone-kill-mcmahon-obama-245/
You go ahead and stand up for what is right. I will continue to support you. I am supporting you and Chick Fil A.
[...] January 3, 2013 [...]
The WHINING CHRISTIANS are at it again. Be as “religious” as you like in your family and personal life but if you are not adult and Christian enough to “RENDER UNTO CAESAR” then start another business and above all STOP WHINING!
@Erdman, rendering unto caesars, does not mean going against Gods laws. You will have a chance to render unto caesars when Obama raises your taxes, and when he does, I will not be happy, but I will pray about it and then pay it, because, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s. Taxes are Caesars and the babies are Gods.
@Erdman, Duh. family business. “The WHINING CHRISTIANS are at it again” You use such convincing logic, You win.
Dictating minimum wages didn’t upset you but medicine did. This is not a healthy commerce decisions that is business is business. Pro-Life in a world where human slavery, human trafficking, Domestic and civil violence, welfare, rape, etc is on the up-rise is one of the most irresponsible things to support in healthy commerce.
Business here is a platform I can’t support. Your decision is a personal one not a business one. BY doing what you are doing here gives capitalism a really bad rep. This is self personal belief you are claiming will fail your business. That is your OWN SELF BELIEF not business killing.
You are using the American dream of opportunity, free enterprise as your way of getting attention for a religious issue. This is not a competent business decision. In fact with crime at the rates they are, it isn’t even a religious issue anymore. It is a fire the government issue. Pro-life can’t even be addressed as responsible until Judicial catch up is achieved. What that as to do with business is beyond me. Sounds like the pro lifers are simply taking a beating as well they should if they can’t put it in the correct “Without Prejudice” terms.
Just curious, why should any business have to pay for an elective surgery. We should be overwhelmed with joy that they want to help us with a real medical problem not something that is( in my opinion) cosmetic. This country has too many entitlement issues, just saying.
They shouldn’t but there is more wrong with business. A business shouldn’t be forced to provide any benefit. Minimum wage looks good and is just as bad but in the end the product cost increases by a dollar for all public’s and the wage after tax is less net or only 1 cent.
So if a person has a baby and the minimum raises to get more in the tax bracket and they realize less, net, is this responsible?
The government dishes out depression, recession like this all the time playing on the public’s want top help. In the end of the minimum wage, they get more and everybody else gets less.
When the government gets more, they don’t pay for themselves so it goes on and on. So not only is Pro Life irresponsible in crime rates it is irresponsible in income providing. These are separate issues.
To me first things first, provide for the babies you are promoting and/or get better birth control then just how to education. Like emotional issue and sex. But to preach business owner then can’t separate issue, I have a problem with that integrity is all.
If you want the government to provide medical by itself then fix the problem from the start not your own finish. The courts are clogged with it. Why does the government get to dictate what you pay to an employee? Isn’t it the same thing regardless what is dictating? The USA being a democracy is becoming a joke now. Dictating is dictating is dictating.
To compare minimum wage, which is determined by both a federal and state gov’ts., with this issue, which is not about pro-life, but the federal gov’t. taking away more of our constitutional rights by mandating what a business must pay for in the way of benefits, is not even a valid argument. The federal gov’t. does not have the right to tell any business what they must pay for in the way of benefits. Besides, HL starts their employees at 80% over minimum wage for the state that store is located, which varies from state to state.
Don’t bother replying anymore. The US Constitution is the supreme law of the land. Which means that Pro Life can’t be law either. You are setting Precedent to dictate and that is all you are doing. You and this constant court clog is what creates the entire dictating thing to begin with.
It also means that you are 1 out of millions of business owners. Join clogging up the court for your issue along with millions of other Pro Life cases. That do nothing but set another precedent, if you know anything about the law and a dictionary, to dictate some more. You and others like you are inviting red socialism into this country. If that happened you wouldn’t have any control over anything. Try looking at soviet Russia again and what happens when millions of you say : You don’t have the right to dictate to me.
Your politicians say its soviet time since you can;t settle it yourselves. You will not get the last word with me here. So don’t reply. Clog up the courts and throw away your money. It’s your right. I’m sure there is a money eyes attorney just waiting in line for you.
You example is contradictory to you statement.
Stop trying. You are useless.
Go…Hobby Lobby…Go ! Clog up the courts. Yell from the roof tops! Stand Firm in your beliefs. God is watching! And I fully support your fight!
@tnwltn, I don’t know whether to laugh or be frightened to death at the stupidity, blindness, and the “right to entitlement”. that many people here have. Those of us who “get it” seem to be in the minority. God help us all!
Have faith joeinca! If your able to reach even one person, it’s a blessing.
Stop bothering me with it. Donate to their legal fund. They will need it. Raise money for them not words.
I shop there, and if they need it, I would donate to help their cause. I would also talk to others about donating to help too. It’s not just their cause though, it’s ours too. To defend our rights and freedoms is the best cause. Still, they will continue to receive my support with words as well. So you see…no matter what form it comes in, they have my complete support!
Why are you writing me about you taking another’s choice away that are included in “We the people” ? I am not interested in knowing who supports them. I am happy they are a successful business stop writing me and donate to their attorney fees. I am for business not being required to pay any medical. In case you have a problem with taking another’s choice away. Screw just your drugs. Take your drug cause somewhere else. I spend my time on bigger things then your small fry issue. I am rallying for no mandatory medical for any business period it takes all their rights away.
Take your Pro Choice drug issue to small small fry court that cares. Try the UN they are just as petty.
“Why are you writing me about you taking another’s choice away that are included in “We the people” ? I am not interested in knowing who supports them. I am happy they are a successful business stop writing me and donate to their attorney fees”
In case you forgot, you provoked it and I just replied. Seems to me, that you asked…did you not!
I am for business not being required to pay any medical.
You seem wishy washy in your comments and it is hard to tell just where you stand. I would agree that, at the very least, no company should be dictated to pay for it. Instead, it should only be an insentive that employers have for their employees because they value them, not because the government forces them to.
“In case you have a problem with taking another’s choice away. Screw just your drugs. Take your drug cause somewhere else.”
My stand has nothing to do with drugs. I am 100% against drugs and always have been. Instead, it is about the rights of the people not being ruled by government. I don’t believe in handouts of any kind. I believe in earning things and working hard to do that.
“I spend my time on bigger things then your small fry issue. I am rallying for no mandatory medical for any business period it takes all their rights away.”
No, it should not be manditory! So why are you so defensive to people in here if you are against dictatorship? Are you just not understanding what people are saying or what? I get it that you don’t want manditory medical period and I think that is what some of us in here are saying as well. True, I believe that companies should offer something if they want good, hard working people to work for them. To show how much they value their employees, but not because they have to. It should be their choice, just as it is an employees choice to work for a company or not.You are the one who starts it off, yet you keep telling people to stop writing you. You can’t have it both ways. You speak and they speak. That’s generally how “conversations” work. Maybe you should make your position a little more clear. Just saying!
I make my position very clear. In fact brutally clear I am told constantly. If you can’t see it then get the comments off another’ s blog and make them on mine.
If you want to know more about my position then look at me on my blog , otherwise I can only detect you are not interested on anything but public arguing.
If you are only interested in arguing then stop cluttering up the public pads and especially somebody else’s presentation.
Again, stop writing me here and my blog is easy to get to. Stop using somebody else’s presentation.
This blog post is about Pro Choice and business taxes. I put all my stands on this very clear on my blog. They are right, but take the whole battle if you are going to take it on with your own profits.
My original comment was very clear, wages are dictated too. Wages are any businesses major expense. Especially when you have to add unemployment. FICA, and worker comp matches/taxes on all the payrolls. Since they obviously sound like a good business with great ethics it is a shame they have to pay all these. Guess they like too. So leave it to them.
Now unless you are familiar with all these payroll matches and taxes constantly extorted from all businesses, stop commenting on things you know nothing about.
Minimum wages laws extort far more from their business then any drug. Medical insurance is just another government failure being extorted from business. Now have i made myself clear or are you going to continue embarrassing yourself not knowing a thing a bout business?
Being profit makers they should see get rid of the high payroll extortion’s and have their own legal fees covered to take on theirs and YOUR Pro Choices issues.
Again. This is brutally clear to any that can produce a profit making business and supply jobs for people. If not get out of business. You are asking for more extortion from people just like these.
By the way if you can’t add all these government extortion up to your own costs everywhere in all business, they don’t do it for free, get out of commenting on any business issue. That means the cost of living too.
We have received an abuse report regarding your comments. Please do not harass, harangue, troll or be combative. Otherwise, we will need to suspend your ability to comment.
Report it to wordpress That is their duty.
Actually, it’s ours as editors, thank you. WordPress has nothing to do with it. We can and will handle our own problems with comments.
Then take my ability from your website. Considering your followers, you have my complete permission. Commenting on your website is not a to be considered a privilege. That attitude doesn’t get endorsed well.
Please with all speed take my “privilege” away and take your whinny babies with you that keep trying to argue with logic and can’t. Your followers obviously represent you well. That or teach them a bit better to understand loosing an argument is not harassment because if it is, you have very weak followers and representation that can’t gain. An agency full of weak followers makes it a weak agency.
Before you respond again like the rest who think their input is a privilege to me, I’ll try your language: PLEASE TAKE YOUR ABILITY AWAY TO GET MY COMMENTS.
mkesling63, Trying to be as nice as possible, i must say, you’re either an idiot or a pro-choice nazi. Either way, you’re so far off base you’re not even in the ballpark with your statement. This whole thing and HL’s stand is based on their right as a legitimate business to provide or not provide insurance coverage for whatever pill or procedure they wish, based on their own beliefs, PERIOD! How dare you even suggest that we who support them are suborning communism. We are in fact standing up for our inalienable right to free choice and freedom of religion
Raise money for legal fees not words. I am for Democracy. You are for dictating. Raise your legal fees not money for them. They will need that more then words.
Pro choice is Democracy. I don’t give a hoot about your abortion issue. So yes I am a Pro Choice Nazi. Abortion I could care less. Pro- Choice, self choices is Democracy.
Do I dare? Yes I most certainly do. Abortions are a sex ed failure. You people just keep raising them money for attorney fees. They will need it. Your words of them and yours being denied as PRO CHOICE WHAT I PAY FOR NAZI’S will need lots of attorney fees. Words do not pay attorney fees.
So PRO CHOICE ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR NOW. NOT LIKING YOUR PRO CHOICE IN NOT PAYING FOR THE DRUGS. In your own words. Tell that to the attorney.
I say all of you that comment on them should raise them money so their business doesn’t have to suffer instead of playing on the professional to get what you want. They provide PRO CHOICE jobs paying more then NO CHOICE minimum wages. You people are just providing PRO CHOICE BITCHING.
mkesling63, You really are an idiot! This has absolutely nothing to do with pro-life or pro-choice. It has nothing to do with clogging up the courts with lawsuits. It has nothing to do with companies denying rights to their employees. Your rantings sound like you lost a legal case and it cost you a lot of money so you’re just plain PO’d at the legal system. That’s just a guess tho. There is only one question here. Does the federal government have the right to dictate company policy for any business, publicly of privately owned? Those of us who stand with Hobby Lobby say NO, the gov’t. does not have the right to tell a business what benefits it must provide to it’s employees. The reason why HL does not want to pay for coverage of abortion pills or procedures is NOT at issue. Try reading the Declaration of Independence and The Constitution, and have someone around to explain to you what the big words mean. Like self-determination and freedom of religion. When a gov’t. takes free choice from you and tells you what you must do, it is no longer democracy, it is fascist dictatorship, and it is a historical fact that freedoms based on religious beliefs are the 1st freedoms to be denied by a fascist dictatorship. But you can keep on with your nonsensical rantings, that is as long as the gov’t. allows you to do so. That right will disappear right after they take all of our guns away in the name of “the common good”. Just don’t be surprised when they come and kick in your door, drag you out of your house, and shove you into a boxcar to take your stupid ass to a reeducation (concentration) camp. Wake up!
Stop replying and good luck. I’ll be an idiot for democracy instead of socialism/communism. It is very obvious to me when you people can’t beat a sound argument, you get petty personal abusive. I talked to a federal judge about Pro Se. Now I fully understand why they like attorney’s. Fund raise for attorney fees. Your PRO CHOICE to sue for this, good luck suing Washington DC. Stop embarrassing yourselves here because you really are.
BY the way. I guess if somebody has an abortion they can drag them off to that reeducation camp. A little more for the simple mind that fears.
For that fear, they bring the camp to you. It has already come to millions of Americans just like you. Stupid enough to believe it doesn’t exist now.
mkesling63, You make absolutely no sense whatsoever. But, I’ll defend to the death your right to make a fool of yourself, over and over and over…
Keep doing it you are doing a great job. Keep commenting just like you are everywhere. I look forward to it.
I am trying to get to your blog so you can continue to defend my right to being an idiot for me. But it just doesn’t want to come up. So remove the coward and make comment on mine so I can on yours.
Well said Joeinca! You go girl!
If you are backing the government on this issue you are the one that is for socialism/communism/fascism. I and all those who back Hobby Lobby are for democracy, the constitution, and the freedom to live our lives without government interference or control. These freedoms must extend to all Americans, whether you agree with them or not. And mark my words, you false patriot, this question will not be answered in this forum or in the courts. The government has already taken control of the courts. This will be decided, at best, in the voting booths, when we vote all incumbents out of office and take back our government. Or, at worst, in the streets and fields of this great country when we take back our country from the fascists by force of arms, which is our right and our duty as free Americans. I only pray to God it doesn’t come to that. FREEDOM IS NOT FREE AND IS NOT AN ENTITLEMENT AND COMES WITH GRAVE RESPONSIBILITIES. You can go back to drinking your beer and smoking your pot now.
LMAO! Joeinca, you are awesome! I’ll be one of those in the battle field beside you..kicking some communist butt….you can bet on that!
@tnwltn, I would be happy to share a foxhole with you any time. But, I feel i must correct you on just one thing. I think it’ll be fascists we’ll be fighting rather than communists. Semantics, I know. LOL Shall we just say anti-democratic forces bent on subjugating the people of this great land.
Thank you Hobby Lobby for standing up for God and your principles.
I admit I did not thoroughly read every Reply here, but it looks like no one mentioned this: without stats to back me up, I think it is highly probable that most of the people who would use the type of contraception that is the focus of this issue, the morning after pill, would be unmarried women who had sex. This behavior could be viewed as acceptable/condoned by provided financial assistance for the morning after pill. Christians who follow the Bible do not support sex outside of marriage; this could be a Christian’s reason for not wanting to pay for the morning after pill.
Yes Janie, that is one of the reasons, we let our government dictate to us about allowing the schools to give out condoms, because it would mean safer sex, when instead they should have been teaching abstinence. Since the whole condom thing only made children believe that apparently it was ok to have sex because they are giving out condoms at school, now we have a lot of pregnant teenagers and adults that used to be teenagers with that mindset, and instead of teaching life and adoption, they are handing out death and emotional turmoil. Since that didn’t slow down(the whole getting pregnant thing), their thought is to make us businesses and taxpayers pay for their bad ideas. They once again have the wrong answers. When do we stop being stupid, and bring God back in to the picture, the one who has all the answers even before we had questions.
Let me preface this with that my comment has nothing to do with the HL letter. Your statement about abstinence education is extremely false. Teaching abstinence has been shown to have no effect and in some cases it has been shown to increase teen pregnancy. Although I believe that teaching abstinence is extremely important for a variety of reasons, both religious and other, abstinence only teaching holds many teens to unrealistic standards because their ability to hinder themselves is still developing (their brains are underdeveloped). If teens were taught about both abstinence and contraception, then the need to use morning after pills would decrease. Prevention of destruction of life should be the goal.
Source:
http://news.uga.edu/releases/article/abstinence-only-education-does-not-lead-to-abstinent-behavior/
Let’s take this one step further, holyhill1203. It is not our school’s or our teacher’s duty to instruct our young on sexual responsibility. That falls on the shoulders of the parents, and let’s face it, today’s parents are far to lenient with their kids. I don’t care if both parents are working or there is only one parent in the home, it is their duty to teach their kids to be moral, responsible, respectful individuals. Unfortunately, most parents I talk to are afraid to discipline their kids due to child abuse laws that have gotten out of control. I have been told by moms and dads that if they spank their kids, that Child Protective Services will come and take their kids away. Yet another one of our rights that the gov’t. has taken from us and put into the hands of bureaucrats.There’s a lot to be said for the philosophy of “Spare the rod and spoil the child”.
Holly there was a time when abstinence was the rule of the land, having sex before marriage was unheard, if you got pregnant you were ostracized for it, and it hasn’t been that long ago. So what happened, well for starters prayer was taken out of schools, God was taken out of schools, corporal punishment was taken out of schools and our reason for being was taken out of schools, the evil that was let to run a muck in our country is destroying us. Children were not being taught to respect authority or their elders they were led to believe they had the upper hand. All of us allowed the government to do this to our children and our country. God forgive us.
[...] The Brenner Brief | [...]
This is simply a case of a greedy CEO hiding behind his “Religion” in order to justify cheating his employees. He doesn’t have the right to push his religious values on his employees. That’s a clear violation of THEIR First Amendment right. He doesn’t have the right to tell them to go to Church on Sunday. He doesn’t have the right to tell them to give 10% to Church on Sunday. He doesn’t have the right to choose what medical procedures his employees have the right to access. If he were a Christian Scientist, his religious principles would dictate that he never visit a doctor – I doubt anyone would support his claim of “principle” if he demanded that his employees cease visiting doctors on the basis that it’s a violation of his religious beliefs to pay for doctors’ visits.
@Darren “This is simply a case of a greedy CEO hiding behind his “Religion”” Apparently you didn’t read the article, It will cast him $1.3 million PER DAY in government fines if he doesn’t comply. So tell me again who’s greedy and who’s stupid!!!
@darren, How could you say this CEO is greedy when he, 1) starts all employees at 80% over minimum wage, where most companies pay minimum or just above it to start. 2) has all stores close early during the week so all employees can have time with their families, 3) has stores stay closed on Sunday so any employee who wishes, can attend whatever religious service they choose or just have a day of rest. In no way is he imposing his beliefs on his employees. In my opinion Mr Green and his family have created as close to the “American Dream” of a company as any I have heard of in recent history, and they should be applauded not only for their integrity and consideration for those they employ, but for the courage of their convictions in standing up against a corrupt government.
@Darren:
“This is simply a case of a greedy CEO hiding behind his “Religion” in order to justify cheating his employees.”
Honestly, I wish they would have left the part out about the coverage of abortions and the like from the article as it would have just been enough for me to support HL in the fact that the government is trying to interfere in their business. However, since coverage of abortions and the like is the reason for the governments interference in the first place, I guess they had no choice to bring it up in the article. As a result, religious beliefs naturally had to be included as well. Actually, in thinking about my last statement, I would be more inclined to think that “coverage of abortions and the like” may not be so much the reason as it is an excuse to interfere. It’s just one of those avenues they plan to use to gain control over the american people.
“He doesn’t have the right to push his religious values on his employees.”
How do you get that he is pushing his religious beliefs on his emplyees? He is not telling them they can’t do something. He is just saying he will not pay for it. He is also taking a stand agaist government interference. His right…Our right as Americans. Where did you come from?
“That’s a clear violation of THEIR First Amendment right.”
He has not violated his employees’ rights in any way, shape, or form. He pays them very well and he cares about them having time off with their families. Sunday is the best day for that. Its a day when children are out of school, and, (if they are fortunate enough to have employers who feel the same way) their spouses will be off as well. It’s a day for family, and if his empolyees and their families worship then they are able to do so. He simply gives them that option (as God intended to be). It’s suppose to be a day of rest. So for a Christian who believes in that, it makes sense that he would live by that and allow others to as well, if that is what they choose to do.
“He doesn’t have the right to tell them to go to Church on Sunday. He doesn’t have the right to tell them to give 10% to Church on Sunday.”
I must have missed this part….right! Not! He never said that. He did not tell them they had to do either.
“He doesn’t have the right to choose what medical procedures his employees have the right to access.”
He is not saying that they cannot have whatever medical procedures they want to have. He is just not going to pay for it! Since when, did it become his obligation to support their medical procedures? Especially, when those procedures happen to be against his religion. Since when, did it become his obligation to consider his employees choices over his own beliefs? Where is it written that he should compremise his own beliefs in order to give handouts. Why would anyone want him to? Unless, they, themselves expect handouts in some form. Only people who think the world owes them something would begrudge this man. Furthermore, You said, “He doesn’t have the right to choose what medical procedures his employees have the right to access.” What a hypocrite! Yet, you think…what…it’s ok for the government to tell him that he has to cover this or be fined! To think that it is ok for the government to rule over us…is communism. They may be our leaders because we vote them in as such, but they work for us, “WE THE PEOPLE”. They are NOT our rulers! People need to stop having this mentality that they are.
” If he were a Christian Scientist, his religious principles would dictate that he never visit a doctor – I doubt anyone would support his claim of “principle” if he demanded that his employees cease visiting doctors on the basis that it’s a violation of his religious beliefs to pay for doctors’ visits.”
Honestly, Doctors are overrated, and overpaid! A person can heal themselves most of the time anyway and do it cheaper as well. Still, that aside, this is really more about being dictated by our government. A right that they do not have. This man and his family have the right to run their business as they see fit. It is not up to you or me, and especially not our government to interfere or dictate.
I think restricting access to “abortion” pills is a threat to personal freedom. Making a pill accessible to your employees is not the same as handing out free abortions and forcing every woman to have one. Instead, it is giving your employees a choice, which they deserve to have. By not covering plan B, you are taking away the freedom of your female employees.
Bull shit!!! You still have access to them you just have to pay for them. or just buy a box of rubbers or keep your pants on. It is a luxury. Whats next. insurance to pay for piercings and tattoos.
Tell me about it…Plan B is over the counter medicine…PAY FOR IT YOURSELF…YOU MADE YOUR BED WHEN YOU MADE A BABY!
@emma, HL is not restricting access to anything. They are just not willing to subsidize the promiscuous behavior of their female employees by provided insurance coverage to stop or prevent a pregnancy due to that employees bad judgement and lack of morals. Every company should have that right. You say you want personal freedom, I guess to sleep around or have sex without a condom. With freedom comes responsibility! If you make a baby, you should have to raise it. End of conversation.
See reply to abaworlock…the company is NOT restricting access…it is an OTC pill…they just don’t want to have to PAY FOR IT! And I don’t blame them…if someone wants a Plan B pill they can stop by their local pharmacy and pay for it themselves…’nuf said!
@Emma, killing a baby is killing a baby, and we don’t want to be forced to take part in yours or any others murder of an innocent child. There is enough information out there, that most people recognize abortion as murder, while others are in denial, probably because they had one or know some one that did.
Do not speak of freedom. You do not understand the concept at all. It is about being responsible NOT shirking responsibility.
@ wheresthemega you appear obsessed just on one aspect of Obama care. When there are equally as big and concerning elements which need addressing. “As Judges say take judicial notice of the abortion element.” Now as far as everything else – I hear you saying, “let them die,” “let them die.” Answer this question are you willing to condemn those who don’t have health insurance to death. That what I hear you saying. You don’t care about your follow man. What kind of person professes to want to save and protect life in one hand and in the other condemn others to death that should be considered equally as innocent.
Humans have proven they are humanistic and need laws to keep them from taking advantage of his fellow man. You can not run a business the way you want, because the way humans want to run a business results in someone being deprived and hurt.
Now pay attention carefully. Unethical and corrupt behavior of business in America is despicable. Business owner and manager have an obligation to God and society as a whole to be fair and equitable with its customers and employee. If not you’re not better than those you profess to despise.
Laurice the bottom line for me is, what does God say about it. The end does not justify the means. I do not believe a place of business is responsible for what its employees do outside of the work environment. Should a employer be responsible for a drug addicts professional help, no, should an employer be responsible for sending an alcoholic to aaa, No, should an employer bail out a womans bad decision she made the night before by helping her committ murder with a day after pill or an outright abortion, NO. Should an employee expect medical help for their lack of discipline, I think not. This is part of what churches are for, they are to help the fallen, it is the churches responsibility to help the sick, homeless, broken hearted.
@Laurice; Obama care is a financial disaster, hundreds of thousands of jobs are slated to be lost because of it. so in the end same amount of people will be un-insurance but more unemployment.
http://www.heritage.org/research/projects/impact-of-obamacare
http://newstalk870.am/thousands-of-layoffs-pending-due-to-obamacare-many-starting-now/
Yep, that is what will end up happening! Uninsured and unemployed, but I wouldn’t be too sure that the government isn’t wanting that to happen anyway. Then we would all be dependent on them. We’d have no jobs, no insurance, no health care, no homes, no food, no guns, no protection against them, no rights. “We the people,” would be helpless. Wasn’t there something said…oh about 30 some years ago, that they want there to be only two kinds of people….”The extremely rich and the extremely poor”!
Agenda 21: Bush signed on in 1992 along with178 other countries. This kind of shit is made in to SI FI movies, but this could be a reality!!!
I think this line sums up the intellectual content of the rest of the comment: “Humans have proven they are humanistic…” My Lord, some of the longest rants on this thread make no sense at all. Typical tactic of the raging Left, tying our energy up with nonsense and distracting us from the real battle that is being waged elsewhere. Our Lord said that some demons could only be driven out with prayer and fasting. Back to the battlefield I go.
[...] Read the whole letter here. [...]
The rights are being denied, or sweep away from in the name of bigotry and this is just another case. Denial of rights, that you already have, from others, based on your religious belief system is bigotry. NOTHING justifies it. AND Bigoty should and can not be used as a weapon under the guise of freedom of speech. Hobby Lobby needs to be boycotted. I for one will not spend another cent there ever.
@Thomas bigotry
stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one’s own. For someone intent on following Godly beliefs, bigotry is not an insult. Your ability to throw this word around as an insult, only means that you too must be a bigot, because you are intolerant of their beliefs. No one has the right to play God, not even Obama.
@Thomas. What rights are you talking about??? I haven’t heard about the right to free birth control. This has absolutely nothing to do with any kind health issues, It has nothing to do with women’s rights. My insurance company has never bought me condoms. nor-should it. This is nothing more than people wanting shit for free. I guess it is your right to want, it’s just not your right to get.
Exactly!
[...] than their company’s paying a $1.3 million per day fine. The Brenner Brief has extensively covered the Hobby Lobby [...]
[...] Tragic letter from The Hobby Lobby CEO: results of personal freedoms slipping away – The Brenner B…. [...]
[...] a friend of mine from work posted a link to a letter by David Green, the CEO and Founder of the Hobby Lobby chain of craft stores. In his letter, Mr. [...]
I praise you for standing up for your beliefs and doing what is right — Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong – Sadly I see our freedoms that are so dangerously fought for slipping away – Stand proud – you are not alone!!
[...] This is a letter from the CEO of Hobby Lobby about his business potentially being fined millions of dollars everyday they do not comply with certain health legislations concerning abortive contraceptions. http://thebrennerbrief.com/2013/01/03/tragic-letter-from-the-hobby-lobby-ceo-results-of-personal-fre… [...]
[...] Hobby Lobby Arts and Crafts means business. The Brenner Brief report on CEO David Green’s open letter on January 3, 2013. Green has consistently stated that his company’s purpose is one founded upon [...]
“We believe doing so might end a life after the moment of conception, something that is contrary to our most important beliefs.”
– Countless conceptions actually end naturally (http://miscarriage.about.com/od/riskfactors/a/miscarriage-statistics.htm); does God plan these? If so, why? For real. And why is this one of their “most important” beliefs, given that overpopulation is ruining the world in countless ways?
“It goes against the Biblical principles on which we have run this company since day one.”
– Where does the Bible EVER talk about what other people do with their wombs? It never even mentions abortion. Plus, in both the old and new testaments, lives of all ages are ended abruptly and cruelly by both Christians and God himself.
“If we refuse to comply, we could face $1.3 million PER DAY in government fines.”
– I actually laughed very loudly when I first read this. With all the links they included throughout their article, why didn’t they have a source for this little “fact”?
I’m no troll – I’m a genuine seeker of truth. And this article if rife with harmful exaggerations and conservative propaganda.
This is not an article — it is a letter from the Hobby Lobby CEO.
Your first comment is in reply to someone’s religious beliefs. David Green and his leadership team have the right to run their company as they see fit. Employees are aware of the policies, and can work elsewhere if they so choose. Green believes that life begins at conception, and you — and all Americans, including Obama — should respect his right to believe that. Here are a few Bible verses explaining how and why Christians believe life begins at conception, since you seem to not know the Bible well: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091123033718AAj0tG1. Should you need more, use your favorite search engine.
Again, this is a letter, so of course Green does not cite the fine. However, a simple Google search on your part would find evidence of this. Or, you could read the ruling against Hobby Lobby. Or, you could review the HHS documentation. Or, you could read ObamaCare. It’s always interesting when liberals say something isn’t sourced; yet, you haven’t taken one second to try to find that source yourself — you’d rather just whine.
No one is saying you’re a troll, but how can you be a seeker of the truth if you don’t even Google the information you seek yourself first? C’mon, certainly you’re smarter than that.
POW! Love it Sara, well said!
@ aj….”I’m a genuine seeker of the truth”…then why didn’t you SEEK the truth about the fine before you posted your blurb? You can google or bing “Hobby Lobby Fine” and from that will come a plethora of information…lol. You “laughed very loudly”…well, I did the same after reading your post…great thing about this country is free speech and the FREEDOM to run a company how I would want or how Mr. Green wants. No government should have the right to dictate what insurance plans are offered with any company. If the EE doesn’t like it, they should find a different ER. Not all companies offer the same insurance and they shouldn’t have to. Lest we become socialistic about healthcare…Obama and his “care” will ruin this country. Hobby Lobby is a good company that treats their EE’s with respect and good pay.
[...] businesses by state and federal agencies at the behest of industrial farm or dairy industries, or job-creating businesses on the verge of closing because of imposed immoral laws. Or maybe you’re being treated like a criminal simply for planting an edible [...]
I am logging in to say something also. This article of course, is almost a real fabrication of what Hobby Lobby is all about. First of all, if they are such great christians that run the place how come nobody knew this until they tried to get out of this healthcare thing? Number 2, they claim they pay 80% above minimum wage-oh yah, at what store? That would be $13.50 per hour in all state, I never met anyone at Hobby Lobby that made that much money besides the store manager, most of their staff make around $8.50 per hour. Number 3, I understand the patriotism thing and maybe even the religious thing, but as far as beoing part of the local community? Bull !-they buy the majority of their products through a company called Hong Kong Connections, if they are truly about patriotism and community then buy from Americans and I will support you, you guys cant have it both ways. Finally number 4, Hobby Lobby only offers a major medical plan, and have never offered anything else, and no major med plan that I ever heard about included anything except payment if you were hospitalized, so no kidding that their plan does not include contraception and on top of that, it is only available after you have been there six months and are full time, nobody in Hobby Lobby stores is considered full time except department heads and managers.
Perhaps you didn’t know Hobby Lobby was a Christian-owned and operated business, but that is not a reflection on what others of us knew. It just tells us that you were unaware of it. As to the rest of you charges, you cite no sources and offer no proof. Allegations do not an argument make. The issue here is not all the other things you mentioned. The issue under discussion here is whether or not Hobby Lobby can be forced to provide insurance that provides contraception, forcing them to violate their consciences. That is the focus of the letter and the threat facing them (and the rest of us) and this thread. The rest of your tirade, I thinkm is aimed at obscuring the issue and distracting attention away from the central point.
Don’t care if its a religious thing. Promiscuity, drugs and alcohol or even a low fat diet are all personel decisions and should be paid by the person that made that decision and not by the employer. Companies shouldn’t have to pay for employees bad decisions.
I made typos: “you” should have been “your” and “thinkm” should have been “think,”. Darn tiny keyboards. Grrr.
What has happened to personal responsibility? Since WHEN did YOUR CHOICE to engage in sexual activity – along with the natural consequences – become SOMEONE else’s responsibility?
Regardless of religious views – WHEN did it become the the RESPONSIBILITY of the employer to PAY for ANY woman’s contraceptives?
These ‘people’ are all about ‘my body – my choice’…. but apparently NOT ‘my responsibility’?
I stand with Hobby Lobby!